Jiangnan 2025- the wonderful food of Shanghai, Suzhou and Hangzhou

[sck]

In late June this year, I spent slightly more than a week in Jiangnan- Shanghai, Suzhou (Jiangsu), and Hangzhou (Zhejiang), which provided great sightseeing, some truly excellent food, great tea, and plenty of history.

There are countries where everyone rush to, like Japan, because its easy to travel in. China doesn’t get nearly as many overseas tourists. But its actually quite easy to travel around, especially in larger cities like Shanghai. And let’s face it, looking at the technological advances there, sometimes going back home to the SF Bay Area can feel embarrassingly like going back to a developing country- cashless society (I didn’t use a single bank note or coin during my time there, nor did I ever feel the need to look for an ATM.), high speed rail that runs every few minutes (yeah, we celebrated finally having an electrified Caltrain a couple of years ago), electric cars everywhere.

The country sometimes gets a bit of a bad rep because of its government, which can be a bit unwarranted because, its easy to talk smack about countries other than your own, while overlooking the problems back home. I think one has to take the good with the bad for any place.

But the food, it was just glorious. There were only a week’s worth of meals that I could pack in, and there are still many more that I need to sample in subsequent trips. Plenty positive to write about about the cuisine of that area, and plenty to write about the limitations of Chinese food in general in the U.S, which is really just a small subset of the breadth and depth of food offered in China. Depressingly, I have had almost zero desire to eat Chinese after coming home to the SF Bay Area (@hyperbowler) which supposedly has some of the better Chinese food in the U.S.

One mistake that I made was spending way too many meals trying to find supposedly the ‘best’ rendition of Shanghai food famous overseas- xiao long bao, sheng jian bao, when I should have just gone straight to the food that I can’t easily get outside Jiangnan. Nothing wrong with XLB or SJB, but I consider those as high floor, low ceiling food that is more appropriate as breakfast food than haute cuisine that reflects the skills of Jiangnan chefs, who are true artisans who have collectively honed their craft over thousands of years.

At the end, a collection of Chinese mobile apps are essential in navigating China and finding eats. For me, they were Amap (map), Alipay/ Wechat (payment), Didi (ride hailing), Qunar (hotels), Railway12306 (High speed rail), Meituan (takeouts). For others, Rednote, Dianping (finding eats) and Taobao (online shopping) are helpful as well.

Here were the places that I ate in, which I will write in more details in separate posts:

Shanghai 上海 part 1:

Ren He Guan 人和馆(静安寺店)
Yang’s Dumpling 小楊生煎館
Chen Dacheng 沈大成( 豫园商城店)
Yang Zhou Restaurant 扬州饭店(南京东路店)
Jia Jia Tang Bao 佳乐汤包(黃河路)
Yong Fu Xiao Xian 甬府小鲜(静安嘉里中心店)

Suzhou 苏州:

Songhelou 松鹤楼(观前店)
Gu Su Qiao 姑苏桥·文人苏式面馆(观前街店)
Sucheng Jiayan 苏城家宴(万科·美好广场店)
Weiji’ao Noodle Restaurant 伟记奥面馆(白塔东路店)
Yuxingji Noodle Restaurant 裕兴记平江路店·苏式面馆

Hangzhou 杭州:

Louwailou 楼外楼(杭州西湖风景名胜区店)
Longjing Village 龍井村
Teavilla Bamboo Restaurant 紫竹·水乐西湖·庭院餐厅
Longjing Wholesale 龙井批发(茶厂直营)
Definitely Fresh 铁定鲜

Shanghai 上海 part 2:

Ren He Guan 人和馆(静安寺店)
Lailai Snack Dumpling 莱莱小笼
Chen Dacheng 沈大成(南京东路店)

[Google_Gourmet]

Excellent!! Absolutely agree with your assessment and sentiment about China travel.

Which VPN did you use? My go-to VPNs were blocked by the Great Wall. Planning to try letsvpn for our trip in November. Any suggestions?

[sck]

None. I don’t know if its because of my esim (from Trip.com) that already bypasses the great firewall, or because they didn’t block it. But I had no trouble accessing Gmail. Maybe you can try that esim next time. Cheap. I spent something like $5 for 10 days of esim. I got my VPN all prepped, but never turned it on.

I didn’t spend a lot of time accessing other supposedly blocked websites, however.

[sck]

I should add one thing- I think its also better to get a local number once arrived to complement with the data plan. Much easier to reserve restaurants with a phone. I didn’t, so I just showed up. But at least a few times I got turned away because the restaurants were full.

[Google_Gourmet]

@sck

…better to get a local number once arrived to complement with the data plan. Much easier to reserve restaurants with a phone.

We mostly only need a local China number when ordering from DidiEats (we rarely make reservations). Our hotel front desk or club staff have been very helpful in this regard.

We almost always use the international pass with T-mobile. $50 for 15 GB, 30 days, free unlimited phone calls (domestic and international). We usually travel for 20+ days per trip, so the 15GB T/mobile limit can be limiting. Hence, having VPN is a must for hotel WIFI use. Also, IPAD hotspotting is not a viable option.

We use AirAlo when we use an Esim.

[Steve (from DC)]

International travel to China was having its moment before the pandemic. Japan less so.

Now everyone is discovering Japan as if it didn’t exist before. The floodgates have opened up.

I think the lesson here is that people flock together. Once you have critical mass, when everyone knows someone who’s already been, it paves the way for others. It might take a while, but China travel can make a comeback.

I understand the urge to find a good example of something like xlb over there (I certainly did) but my focus is always on discovering entirely new food and dishes that I have no access to where I live. So I did make a beeling to Ji Shi (aka Jesse) in Shanghai. One version of sheng jian bao is fine. then I go on to dishes I don’t recognize.

And, yes, the food is phenomenal. I am always amused when people get back and didn’t like the food as much as Chinese food here.

[FindingFoodFluency (YouTube:@findingfoodfluency)]

Technological advances, aka, everyone is constantly staring at wechat.

Having traveled to China on and off for 20 years, and having lived there twice, I’d say visiting now is worse than any other time I’ve been.

Jinping wants everyone to succumb to QR codes, so that the government knows what everyone is consuming. Well, I already acquiesced to the U.S. analogs years ago, so there’s no need to let China know, too.

Legally, all businesses have to accept cash. I only use cash while there. Occasionally, a vendor won’t have change, or will have to run to a neighbor to break a bill. With any luck, your change won’t be fake…so there’s a vote for you, QR freaks.

Oh, wait.

Trying to be a productive non-mainland employee/human means the internet is a real pain. Not to mention, many businesses require you to use a Chinese mobile number to access their internet, so have fun with that. Chinese airports like it when you scan your passport to go online.

Chinese maps use different coordinates, so Shenzhen’s train station might show up in Hong Kong on Google Maps. I can read Chinese, so I might opt for a Chinese-language map app, but damn are those stuffed with bloatware.

BTW, if you’re at a hole-in-the-wall restaurant, the internet password is usually 88888888.

If you like smoking, and must forego that visit to Europe this time, don’t worry, China has your back.

Finally, the most germane topic on hungry onion, the food. I can’t guarantee that the beef I ordered at the Lanzhou lamian place was actually beef – or halal – so maybe I should travel with a biochemist on my next China trip. Supermarket fruit often has some mysterious waxy feeling, hygiene is dubious at best, and don’t watch the last 15 seconds of my video taken in Changsha.
Forgot to mention, delivery cyclists are bloodthirsty, so have fun on those sidewalks.

But can I say something nice about visiting China? Sure…I’m not apt to get shot while there.

[sck]

@Steve

Now everyone is discovering Japan as if it didn’t exist before. The floodgates have opened up.

I think most of it has to do with the weak exchange rate for yen against USD / euros. It is a deal to travel to Japan. But the only problem is just about everyone else is thinking the same thing.

@Steve

I understand the urge to find a good example of something like xlb over there (I certainly did) but my focus is always on discovering entirely new food and dishes that I have no access to where I live. So I did make a beeling to Ji Shi (aka Jesse) in Shanghai.

I think for me is less so of an urge to find the best version, but rather, its 6am, I am jetlagged, and I want to eat something, so I search up the ‘best’ version of the food I already know, rather than taking the time to find food I haven’t eaten.

[Steve (from DC)]

Well, when you put it that way it certainly takes the shine off it… sounds like you really needed to get that off your chest.

Now onto the rest of the thread… I for one am very much looking forward to reading more about the OP’s exploits. The OP may have shrugged off all the things you complain about and actually had a terrific experience.

[sck]

My experience of Shanghai, Suzhou and Hangzhou was quite different from what you experienced, thankfully. Going to Shanghai is a bit like going to New York City. Going to Hangzhou is like LA. Going to Suzhou is like, well, Fort Lauderdale?

For me, as a tourist, convenience really helped. I don’t know if the government wants to know whether I didi’ed to Jing An or bought some yangmei from a street vendor. But if they do, its fine.

Not that I put a lot of weight into restaurant decor, but I would be hard pressed to find any noodle restaurant that looks and serves food as refined as this one anywhere else.

[Hungryhungryhippos]

@sck

government, which can be a bit unwarranted because, its easy to talk smack about countries other than your own, while overlooking the problems back home.

Glossing over one of the most repressive and authoritarian governments in the world by declaring “everyone has problems” is certainly an interesting take

Glad you are enjoying the food sounds like you had some great eats would love to see some pictures of you took any.

[honkman]

Thanks - it’s always dangerous to start any type of political discussion on this board but yes, that was a very naive comment

[FindingFoodFluency (YouTube:@findingfoodfluency)]

I realize that Hungry Onion topics should generally pivot to the anodyne, but let me spin it another way…I had trouble visiting even this website in China.

By the way, most of the apps listed in the OP are Chinese language-only, or simply suck when there’s an English analog. They feast on mobile phone batteries, have lots of ridiculous pop-ups and puerile mascots, and often require some byzantine method of sign-up.

They won’t help the average non-Chinese speaking foreign visitor.

OK, back to the original topic…I need to get back to the Hangzhou tea museum. It’s the only one of its kind in the country. For anyone heading that way, West Lake Longjing tea is the most renowned.

I first visited Hangzhou in November 2008; had a peaceful table on West Lake (the city’s most famous attraction), accompanied by a pot of longjing tea with some snacks (screwed up and ordered the standard issue mantou instead of the fried version):

Here are a few photos from the tea museum:

Would like to visit Pu’er next, over in Yunnan.

[sck]

@FindingFoodFluency

By the way, most of the apps listed in the OP are Chinese language-only, or simply suck when there’s an English analog. They feast on mobile phone batteries, have lots of ridiculous pop-ups and puerile mascots, and often require some byzantine method of sign-up.

They won’t help the average non-Chinese speaking foreign visitor.

That’s actually probably one of the reasons that China doesn’t get as many tourists as other countries, because it does require a whole different ecosystem of apps. That was my question before I went because I didn’t know what exactly I needed to download. And it requires a bit of translation magic to use them.

A lot of these apps have overlap though, like I can order rides on Amap, reserve hotels, and probably rail tickets too. I think they all want to build their own kingdoms and lock people into their apps.

Some of these mobile apps can be a bit clunky. I think the way they think about app design is not quite the same as what we are used to. Like the first time I got into a ride via Amap (not Didi), I didn’t know the driver was asking me for my last 4 digits of my phone for validation. I told him I didn’t have a Chinese phone number, obviously forgetting that I used A phone number to register for the app, even if its not mine. Took me a minute or two to remember what phone number I actually used. I think it annoyed the driver to have to deal with clueless tourists lol. Eventually I realized I could just look at his phone screen what those 4 digits were. At the end, any app is fine, whether its designed for me or not, since I did my first backpacking before mobile phones became widely available, without knowing the language, customs, or phones.

@Hungryhungryhippos

Glossing over one of the most repressive and authoritarian governments in the world by declaring “everyone has problems” is certainly an interesting take

Glad you are enjoying the food sounds like you had some great eats would love to see some pictures of you took any.

@honkman

Thanks - it’s always dangerous to start any type of political discussion on this board but yes, that was a very naive comment

I think what I had in mind versus what you read probably was a bit different. In my mind, I was referring to this almost knee jerk reaction that’s relatively prevalent that anything China is inherently bad, and not so much what the Chinese government is doing, which is really not something that I was looking to comment on. One example, I hear the complaint often that products made in China is inherently of bad quality. That statement in itself isn’t wrong, there are a lot of products in e.g. Walmart that are made in China, and not particularly durable. But that’s associative, not causative. Manufacturers moved the manufacturing overseas in search of the lower cost. If they are willing to pay to retain their quality spec, China certainly can manufacture quality, e.g. the iPhone. So it isn’t the Chinese that cause the decline of quality. I have my handmade kitchen shears that I bought from Shanghai this time that’s built with such high level of precision (and isn’t cheap, at least for the locals) that compare favorably with my Zwilling.

Another example is there seems to be a common perception amongst the general public in America that Chinese food is cheap, dirty, unhealthy, not worthy of splurge. A lot of this perception is probably driven by the fact that many of the restaurants in America were historically run by immigrants who came to America with nothing, and the easiest way to make a living was probably to open up a restaurant. They most likely didn’t have the means or skills to run restaurants as refined as those in China, and didn’t have a discerning clientele who appreciated the nuances. The end result: kung pao chicken, mongolian beef, chow mein, fried rice, Panda Express became Chinese food in America. Japanese food partially escaped that fate with their kaisekis and omakase. Chinese food has yet to make much progress here. Chinese food can be so ridiculously refined, just unknown to most who hasn’t been to China. It shouldn’t take a Fuchsia Dunlop book, for example, for Jiangnan food to suddenly ‘become’ good quality. It has always been great, just out of reach in the U.K. / U.S. As I mentioned elsewhere in the forum before, the top tier and the upper tier of Chinese restaurants simply don’t exist here in the U.S.

As one travel through the country, it becomes quite apparent that these perceptions can be dispelled. “Travel is about the gorgeous feeling of teetering in the unknown.”- Anthony Bourdain.

[sck]

@FindingFoodFluency

I first visited Hangzhou in November 2008; had a peaceful table on West Lake (the city’s most famous attraction), accompanied by a pot of longjing tea with some snacks (screwed up and ordered the standard issue mantou instead of the fried version):

Didn’t even know about the museum. I got way too much longjing during the trip. And spent a lot more than what i budgeted for for longjing.