It’s been traditional as long as I’ve been alive, which is a considerable amount of time. Before color television.
Anything passed down ‘from age to age’ is traditional. ‘Inventive’ cuisine, by its definition, is always looking for the new, even if its practitioners are mostly copying what their contemporaries are doing.
No, baguettes were always baguettes, it’s just that the Balladur ‘bread decree’ of 1993 defined the ‘baguette tradition’ as being only made of flour, yeast, salt, and water. No other ingredients. That was because, in the period preceding the decree, bread in general and baguette in particular had become anything imaginable but proper bread, with lots of additives that have nothing to do in a bread dough, ever.
However (there was a catch), ‘baguette tradition’ was by no means exclusive in terms of baguette, since all boulangers and industrial bread factories could still keep making ordinary baguette any which way they wished.
The situation has remained the same since then: ‘baguette tradition’, more or less successful depending on the baker, sold at a higher price on the side ‘of just baguette’, also of more or less good quality depending on the baker.
Ironically, some ‘just baguettes’ can be better than the ‘baguettes tradition’ in the same boulangerie. ‘Tradition’ can sometimes be tough and dense.
And, as I wrote above, ‘baguette tradition’ is a type of modern bread, very different from the traditional baguettes I used to know as a child, which were made with levain or sourdough. Because flours are now different, ingredients are different, techniques have changed. There lay the real secret of French bakers: crusty, crispy, light, delicious bread from a levain dough. Most levains used today are unable to produce that lightness. I particularly remember the white baguettes made in the Western regions of France (Charentes, Vendée…) back in the 1960s, crisp, light and luscious with a lovely, slightly acidic taste. Best bread in the world, now disappeared.
Pain viennois is a completely different animal and is still available in boulangeries. It is an old, traditional product too, shaped like a baguette (or a thinner ficelle) but with a smoother surface and deep cuts across the top. The bread dough includes small quantities of milk, sugar, malt, and butter. The flour is of a certain type. It was created in the first half of the 19th century when some Viennese bakers came to work in Paris, using Hungarian flour. It is not steamed before baking, just baked, but it is technically close to the ‘pain brioché’. It is halfway between classic bread and ‘viennoiseries’, i.e. brioches or croissants.
Oh, that wouldn’t be necessary, you’ve amply proven your point with that reply 
and I’m thanking you for that. It reminds me of your English lawn/nail scissors anecdote, if you remember that.
It would be appreciated if, in the future, you could refrain from doing ‘à la louche’ (for others, that means ‘scooped out with a ladle’, as we locals like to say) characterizations that actually don’t rest on solid grounds but, sadly, encompass entire populations in the process. Like ‘we locals’ or ‘we Parisians’. Please bear in mind that there are experienced Parisians here who don’t necessary share your views and have different data in hand. Oh and by the way, most restaurants that could properly be called ‘traditional’ in the Paris area are in the peripheral arrondissements (12th,14th, 15th, 15th, 17th…) and the suburbs. So if the tourist ‘demand has remained steady’ in the inner arrondissements as you claim, I wonder where the offer is.
The last thing you want to do with a tartare de bœuf is be inventive; the dish is a tricky one with which you can’t take risks, and it offers a rather narrow margin for creativity.
Now this is very personal and you may disagree, but there also has to be a culture for a certain dish in certain places. Some countries (like Korea) have a culture of raw beef, or tartare, some just don’t. Belgium has a culture of tartare, and the best tartares I’ve had in Europe were in Belgium. Last ones I remember were in Liège (Brasserie Concordia) and The Butcher’s Son in Antwerp, where I had the best tartare in my life.
France does somehow have a culture of tartare, but I think it is less rigorous and less interesting than the one up North. We can make good tartare, sometimes, but it’s rather hit and miss.
Thanks - I will check out The Butcher’s Son. I used to visit Antwerp a lot, before covid.
I don’t disagree with there being a certain culture for a certain dish. That is why tartare de boeuf doesn’t work in the Netherlands - it’s not in our culture. Restaurateurs put it on the menu, as there is a mini revival of French food here, but keep on adding useless additions or making it ‘more interesting’ by using e.g. extra small quail eggs. People here are just not used to simple dishes.
The best tartare de boeufs I had were in Northern Italy… Bologna and Verona. Very few additions, less even than in France, e.g. they would use slivers of parmesan cheese or even truffles, and then a good quality olive oil. That’s it.
Another irritating development is restaurants choosing ingredients: the more exotic a vegetable’s name, the better. Every menu these days seem to offer things like Savoy cabbage and Jerusalem’s artichoke. Whereas nobody really eats one of our best local vegetables anymore, white chicory.
The Butcher’s Son has flaws — expensive, not exactly friendly — but the food is excellent and boy, that tartare… It’s also nice to have a bolleke straight from the cow’s udder since the place is located at the DeConinck brewery.
Northern Italy tartares… That figures: the Italian beef culture and the way they don’t tamper with good ingredients there. Refreshing, and so good.
About your last paragraph: yes, the ingredients that you see everywhere during a given period. One of the very irritating features of today’s restaurants. We’re certainly not immune to that in France (Buddha hand citron, or lovage, anyone?)
Every time I go back to Brussels I have Filet Americain, or a toast cannibal. There had also been a lovely butcher by my mum’s old place that did a version on a baguette (a lot of places do, but this one was really good). Damn. I hate that I’m not headed to see anyone any time soon.
I think that because this board is so overwhelmingly North America (and Anglophone) there is a tendency for some to become the (self and community) appointed spokes person for a nation. The problem, in addition to not recognising others from or living in that nation with very different experiences as being from or living in that nation, is that they also stop seeing how other axes of identity play into their understanding (gender, class, age, race, region, etc.).
Let’s bring on the different understandings and perceptions of a place/nation which can be as varied as the ones we see in the North American discussions. As a person with a dispersed family who has lived in a few places myself, it’s possibly the only constant.
The best tartare I had was in… Reykjavik! In the first and only Icelandic restaurant to ever get a Michelin star: DILL. And it wasn’t tartare de boeuf, it was sheep. They had done very little with the meat, explaining that there was just no need for it, with the high quality of the meat. The sheep stroll beside a little creek, where lots of herbs can be found, and are thus sort of seasoning themselves. No need to add anything to that.
I liked that a lot. It was both traditonal (the tartare part) and original (the sheep part), and also bold (a one start restaurant serving a dish that barely needs preparation). Oh yes, and the main thing: I loved the taste.
Moral of the story: Sometimes a baguette is juste a baguette. 
Well, I don’t have a dog in the original fight here (the prevalence/popularity of “trad” cuisine in Paris), but as someone interested in hearing as much as possible about food in France from credible sources, I do have a dog in this one.
I agree 100% that it is indeed beneficial to hear different points of view. Bravo, bring them on. The more, the merrier.
I object most strenuously, however, to suggestions that other people should stop speaking (because the suggester knows better/best).
IMO we don’t need cancel culture of any sort on this bb - we have quite enough of it in the U.S. right now, thank you very much - even the softer version that appears to be the suggestion here.
I say - no, beg actually - that each person speak their piece, as boldly as they’d like. And then the rest of us, as readers, can make our own judgements, based on our evaluations of the strength of the arguments, track record, experience of other recommendations, etc.
I think I missed something in translation here. I did not read of people urging others not to speak their minds, but rather the suggestion that one really ought not speak for wide swaths of populations. I am just “egoist” enough to cringe at the thought, for example, that I am seen, as a visitor to Paris, as some American “tourist” with a certain kind of less refined taste or behavior.
I was schooled in my youth by a doyenne of manners (at least in her own mind), and came to the conclusion early that good manners exist to extend to others (all others) a sense of welcome and inclusion, particularly "à table. " I remember a guy I dated for a while, who had grown up in rural poverty in the American South, had once been dating a lovely, young woman who had grown up in the lap of Atlanta society, a Southern “belle.” She had invited my friend to a fancy dinner at the country club, and then laughed at him, as he struggled with the unfamiliar and endless cutlery.
When I knew this guy, he was still mortified by the experience. To me, this young woman could claim nothing of the “belle,” but rather exhibited every ounce of ugliness in her misunderstanding of knowing about table manners. Manners are not meant to separate those in the know from those who are “ignorant.” Rather, the point would have been for her to let her partner know the basic rule to follow, how easy that would have been, and how fun for him to have learned something new in navigating that new culture.
So, for me, anything that smacks of condescension or an attitude that implies that because I am a tourist, I couldn’t possibly know or appreciate something, feels offensive, even if it isn’t meant to be so. Simply put, not good manners.
C’mon folks. This site is about French food and dining. It is not about good manners. It is certainly not about arguing over which of our posters most truly understands the French psyche with respect to food.
Parn is one of our most faithful contributors, extremely generous with his time and advice. If we chase him away, we are the lesser for it. If you don’t like his opinions or his way of stating them, then skip his posts.
One ‘insight’ I can add is that traditional French food in the eyes of most Americans, even those that participate in food-related websites, is limited to French food they can already get where they live. These people are not going to ask for where they can find a good farcis savoyarde or even the very Parisian hareng pommes à l’huile. No, it will be about boeuf bourguignon.
They are not looking for expansion, other than the waistline.
Exactly. I refer to it as Julia Child food. This is not intended to denigrate her, just to point out that her cooking represents the extent of the comfort zone. I should point out, too, that in my experience, English visitors are even less adventurous than American ones.
(Add on edit: of course, these are generalizations, and there are numerous exceptions, as regular participants on this board demonstrate; nevertheless, the lack of curiosity of many, even Americans and Brits I know who live in or travel regularly to France, can be jaw-dropping.)
Everything is about manners. And if you believe this board, of all places, should be exempt from basic respect and good manners, please explain why.
This board is also about not misleading members and not making prejudice or rudeness pass as information. I think this is minimal respect to show posters from other parts of the world who expect accurate insight when travelling. And in case you’d think so (I’ve gathered that you do), this is not about competing. Far from it. It is about respect for my own country and city. As a French person, I need to point out that being rude to categories of people and exploiting the Amélie Poulain fantasy is not a typically French, or Parisian, way of providing information to food-loving foreigners. Giving restaurant information is good. Patronizing, spreading out one’s personal history and throwing one’s supposed ‘parisianity’ in everyone’s face with the confidence that most readers here are not initiated enough to know the difference is not, and at the very least not a mandatory feature of a food discussion board.
If you don’t like this opinion or my way of stating it, you can skip my posts, for I will continue posting and I will do so with the same approach as needed.
[quote=“Carmenere, post:96, topic:31299”]
If you don’t like this opinion or my way of stating it, you can skip my posts
I don’t like or need misplaced anger, so yes – that’s exactly what I will do.
Revenons a nos moutons.
With November now in the rear view mirror, let’s see who if someone plans to go there in January and start a new thread on that.
Agreed on a lot of what you say. Lack of curiosity or a rigid sense of what one should eat in a city or region can shut down a lot of possibilities and the chance to learn about and taste new things.
And that’s the real thing we want on a food board: information about all of it, and maybe even the occasional reminder to move beyond what one assumes people eat in a place.
Just a random thought – I wonder if one of the reasons people want Julia Child food in France is so they can get a gauge on the French restaurants in their home location (I know of very few, if any, places in cities such as San Francisco or London that are doing the style of contemporary Parisian food, and so for visitors from those places, this style of food doesn’t exist).
