Trip Planning for November [Paris]

Regional Dining Discussions France
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101

Maybe badly, but I think this is what I was trying to say. And I agree completely with what you are saying. My plea was that yes we should refrain from talking about what the “French” in general (or more to my point “tourists” in general) eat, and stick to our own individual opinions.

I think, for example, when @Steve tries to characterize opinions of “most Americans, even those that participate in food-related websites,” he runs to risk of offending actual people. That he goes on to intimate that we Americans are all limited in curiosity and learning, and mostly apparently fat, isn’t really very nice, and really doesn’t belong as food criticism here. (And I know, Steve is absolutely American, but this fact doesn’t change the point I was trying to make, any more than some French posters generalizing about French people is also not really okay for me.)

Indeed, I think that @ParnParis would have understood the plea to give his opinions of food, not of groups of people (though I understand better now where he is coming from, as he works in the marketing arena). I depend often on his perspicacious and extremely helpful descriptions of restaurants (and other food/wine recommendations) whether he is advising to go or stay away.

And though I am glad to see, for example, @onzieme’s edit, I still think there is some major generalizing going on. I know in the summertime especially, I find myself annoyed with “tourists” who seem never to get out of Manhattan and then think they have been to New York, so I get the observations and the reasoning. It is just that since the Americans (and English) you are talking to are at least also contributing to this food board, perhaps you could consider that we are individuals like you, sometimes feeling adventurous about a meal, sometimes looking for comfort while traveling.

I’ve noticed, for example, that some travelers who post here seem to be able to eat two long tasting menu meals a day, in order to try it all, not miss anything. This seems like the antithesis of the travelers being teased in this particular post. Yet those travelers also get comments about not doing it right.

Finally, I have to confess, that when I travel to Carpinteria, CA, I always head to what was supposedly Julia Child’s favorite “Spot” there for the “best” burger in the land (assuming this would not be what @onzieme travels to America for either!):

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102

@ninkat – I may have not yet made myself clear. I’m not criticizing trad food and people who go there – I go to plenty of trad places myself.

Instead, I’m criticizing people who will go only to trad places, many of whom consider themselves seriously interested in food. When a suggestion is made to go some place that is doing newer, more creative cuisine, there is a lack of interest, if not outright hostility to the idea, expressed.

For many people visiting Paris, there is not the time or the knowledge/daring to try anything more adventurous (although following Michelin recommendations would hardly be daring, yet it leads one to many non-trad places).

A big part of the responsibility also goes to the English language press – as I’ve said before, John Talbott was the only English language food journalist who understood what was happening on the Paris food scene, and alas, his time writing about it is now done.

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103

You are missing out on the best eating experience in Carpinteria. That would be Rincon Alteno for tacos de lengua, tripa, and Al pastor. It’s a place that maybe Julia Child would miss out on.

When I refer to waist expansion, I was simply playing off on ‘mind expansion.’ EVERY meal expands the waistline, no reference to being fat.

And through evidence I stand by my idea that most Americans (not all) are not interested in learning about French traditional cuisine, they want to compare foods they already know about in the USA with the exact same dish in France.

Mackerel and potatoes are as trad in France as you can get, especially at the end of the month!

104

Being interested in traditional food does not mean unadventurous. Eating game and offal is traditional, but would be adventurous to many people.

I am not as interested in ‘inventive’ cuisine because it is not linked to any sense of place. It can look and taste the same no matter what country you are in.

Like how a picture of a modern hotel room might be the same if you are in New York or Beijing.

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105

I thought I addressed your concern in your first paragraph in the first paragraph of my previous post.

Your idea of “inventive” cuisine is not what I am talking about for contemporary cuisine in Paris. In fact, I have noted above that there is no equivalent in SF, NY, London, and probably almost every place outside of France or Japan that I know of.

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How I miss John Talbott’s writing.

I think I did understand what you were saying @onzieme…Just was saying that the kind of “tourist” you are describing can be found in any culture, in any part of the world, so to make disparaging generalizations about people here on H.O., even if there are some of us here a bit timid about eating out of the box, just doesn’t feel good, if one happens to be a member of that culture. And I agree with your characterization of “For many people visiting Paris…” etc., but my point is that you could easily substitute New York for Paris in that sentence, and it would still be true.

So, okay, fine to criticize people who only go to “trad” places in Paris (though as I read, I think there might be some disagreement about to what that that term refers), but maybe better to nudge out into trying something new or different without putting down someone who only knows about “traditional” French food from reading or eating their hometown version.

And oh dear, @Steve, I did not mean to imply that I was only eating burgers in Carp, I was poking some fun at Julia Child as deified, rarified, exemplar of French food! So hard sometimes to tell tone in written communication. Here it feels like you are defining “trad” French as one thing, and @onzieme is describing it as another, unless I am misreading again?

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107

Ah, interesting, so here we get to defining the terms…“inventive” cuisine is not bound to a culture? You are positing it seems that “modern” is not culturally bound, but “traditional” is. I think that might not be right. Modern/Inventive French food is clearly different than Modern/Inventive Chinese food, no?

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108

Unless I’m misunderstanding what you mean with inventive cuisine, I don’t think I agree with this. Look, for example, at the Nordic cuisine, made famous by restaurants like Noma (Copenhagen), Koks (Faroe Islands) and DILL (Reykjavik). I would say that’s contemporary and inventive, yet it’s all about local ingredients and using what’s in season. It very much has a sense of place.

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109

Well, I might as well “weigh in” here (waistline pun intended), if for no other reason than to confuse people about which Steve is which (I’m the Brooklyn one, with the R last name). At any rate, there seem to be quite a few tangents running simultaneously on this thread, with no way (or desire) to address them all. Suffice it to say that I think I agree with the bulk of what various people are saying but have some quibbles around the edges on 2 specifics:

  • I, also, don’t agree with Steve that all “inventive” cuisine is devoid of place. In fact, it is location that seems to inform the specifics of the inventiveness. Clearly, both the local culture and availability of fresh ingredients play a role at every innovative place I’ve managed to dine. To expand on ninkat’s specific parallel, several Chinese restaurants in NYC have been around that use their cultural heritage as the basis for creating some pretty inventive stuff (Win Son, Bonnie’s, Mission Chinese come to mind). None of these could possibly be mistaken for the inventive/innovative places in Paris, nor with the Nordic places cited by k_man.
  • I get what onzieme is saying about “contemporary cuisine” in Paris being unique. It’s one reason that I love going there. However, if one is willing to put up with the much larger price tag & smaller inventory, there are places here in Brooklyn that, at times, compare well: Fradei (https://www.fradeibistro.com/our-story) & our own branch of Fulgurances (https://fulgurances.com/en/the-restaurants/fulgurances-laundromat/) come to mind. Similar places that I know of exist in Manhattan, Montreal, Asheville, Charleston, N.Orleans. Certainly not in the concentration found in Paris, nor with the intensity of interest, but still… Again, that (& my love for the more traditional French cuisines as well) keep me coming back.

As for the back & forth on broader posting questions, I understand that we all have our feelings vis a vis what we would like to see written on the board, but no discussion board has ever managed to meet each of our wants. I prefer to just accept that folks will say what they will (how they will) and try to get what I can from their content & opine only on anything I think relevant to a food discussion, while basically trying to ignore the other “stuff”. I, personally, don’t see anything to gain in doing otherwise. And, yes, I don’t always succeed in following my own advice. Like this paragraph, for example. :thinking:

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110

All this is kind of mind numbing, why so many words to say simple things. As a long time lurker here and on CH, on my own I can apply the proper “windage” to opinions stated here. You do not need to protect me from other posters!

What I will say is:; If you have chased Parn away from posting here, you will not be forgiven!

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111

Totally agree. What is now called ‘inventive’ cuisine is an international style that’s more or less defined by the wish to be distinguished either by Michelin, or the 50Best, or Instagrammers, and is exactly the same the world over. It has, as you say, no sense of place, except for a few local touches thrown in, preferrably ‘foraged’, because that is part of the kit, but not in a way that really gives you any sense of the place where you are eating.

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This is a good example, for ‘New Nordic’ is not Nordic at all, if we consider its origins. It was created some years back from the interactions of non-Scandinavian consultants and spin doctors with tourist boards and is only very minimally based on any Nordic food culture or tradition, although it does borrow on the practice of foraging which is done the world over. And it worked beautifully on an international level, but it is not a good example of a cuisine that gives you 'a sense of place".

After Scandinavia, the efforts of these consultants were directed towards South America and particularly Peru, but they were not quite as successful, precisely because there was not only a tremendous diversity of ingredients, but also a strong awareness of a local cuisine whose ‘sense of place’ couldn’t be erased by the new guidelines. Also because there was some local resistance to that, from local food scholars among others.

(More about these subjects in the fascinating writings of German journalist Jörg Zipprick, in which is collected his intensive research of ‘modernist’, ‘molecular’, ‘tecnoemocional’ and ‘New Nordic’ cuisines, their roots, their backgrounds, and their origins.)

114

So maybe we could agree about some subtle difference between “inventive” cuisine, which people seem to understand as less culturally based and “modern” cuisine, which people seem to see as being tied absolutely to one culture or another? Maybe, in the latter case, it could be a couple of cultures melded together–I’m thinking about a slew of modern French restaurants in Paris that have all kinds of Asian influences?

115

Well, you know, in terms of food, I like everything. That sounds like banging into an open door, I know, but that’s pretty much my credo. I truly had my mind blown by Ferran Adria’s menus, but I loathed the various knockoffs and the trend that followed. I can be extatic about good traditional fare or very inventive/creative stuff, as long as the latter is really that: creative, not the reflect of a trend. These two concepts, which now everyone blends together, are actually opposite to each other.

As for ‘modern’, I sincerely never managed to understand what the word really means. I cherish a quotation of Ronald Searle’s about food: “When it’s good, it’s always new.”

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116

Ultimately, my goal is to expand my own knowledge of the local cuisine wherever I go.

In terms of France, I encourage people to explore the traditional but not the familiar. If you are traveling, try foods you can’t get where you live. Those are some of the best meals of my life, and they don’t include French Onion Soup. No, it is not better in Paris.

So go ahead and seek out modern Michelin stars if you want, but I suggest getting to know the real cuisine it is based on, not the cartoon version you find as you get further from the source.

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117

Beautifully written, Carmenere. It expresses so much of what I feel, better than I could. Plus you have introduced me to a wonderful quote that I will cherish.

Part of that quote speaks to the idea I have long recognized: we often have a misplaced idea of creativity. It is not reserved for an unusual pairing, like grapefruit with chicken livers. When a chef creates a sublime experience for the eater, that chef infuses even the most traditional dishes with their own invention.

It is like acting. There is the dish you are preparing, and there is a chef. And what is created can be a third entity, which is neither simply the traditional food nor the simply the chef’s own handiwork. The same when an actor portrays a role that might have been written years ago and performed by many others before.

The actor does not have to create new words in order for the creative process to have an effect on the outcome.

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118

You both say it so well. I was also thinking before I read @Steve’s post about the creative process in theater. Specifically about the first act of Sondheim’s “Sunday in the Park with George.” It is creatively about the creative “artistic process,” and somehow, through it’s creative score/artistic creation allows us to witness the birth of an old technique (pointillism) as it is thrillingly being born. And we are presented, at the end of the act, with the extraordinary achievement of seeing Seurat’s famous painting of a slice of Parisian life in thrilling 3-D, a totally modern, creative interpretation set to music.

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119

You probably could even extend that thought to the 2nd Act & use it as an example of “modern” gone haywire.

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120

Ha ha! I was trying to stay safe, but I’d have to agree with you there.

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