Where are those?
In every individualās imagination. A chacun son goĆ¼t.
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There are these things called shivs.
Welcome back Mitch
IMHO -
Pizza - Lucali, Una Pizza Napoletana, Johnās, Robertaās, and DiFara
(outside the city - Frank Pepeās and Sallyās - New Haven CT, Razza - Jersey City, NJ and DeLorenzoās - Robbinsville, NJ)
Bagels - H&H, Russ and Daughters, Kosarās (bialys too) and Tompkins Square.
Reporting back, I wanted to let everyone know that I loved your beautiful city, everyone was nice and friendly and I generally enjoyed the trip. But for the transportation strike which caused some issues on our first day, everything was great. We learned of the strike on the day before we arrived and had to choose a private car from the airport. Putting aside the increased cost as opposed to taking a taxi, the ride from the airport into the city took in excess of 2 hours. As far as food is concerned we were unable to book at Juveniles as it was closed due to the owners having a baby and we had to forego Origines as the menu changed before we arrived and the main plates were not appealing to my companion. Instead, we ate at Le Grand Colbert (a last minute walk in as our booking at Tradi was canceled due to a power issue) which was more than acceptable (though my steak was a little tough), an excellent dinner at Le Chardendoux (beautiful space, wonderful food and service and excellent cocktails and highly recommended), and our dinner river cruise aboard the Don Juan II (beautiful boat, dining room and views and wonderful food though I felt the service was not up to par of its Michelin star). We also had wonderful lunches at Huitrerie Regis and Le Minet Galant. All in all, Paris was wonderful and we will definitely be back again for a much longer trip. Thank you all the excellent advice (especially @ParnParis). A few more side notes - waiting in line for an hour for Cedric Grolet was not worth it, the food hall at Galleries Lafayette was impressive and I especially enjoyed the eclairs from LāEclair de Genie.
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Thereās a saying in the States that if you canāt afford to tip properly then you canāt afford to dine in a restaurant. Tipping is not allowed (or expected) in fast food establishments and thatās where people who refuse to tip should dine. Please know that our system is unfortunately based on us being collectively OK with subsidizing the wages of people in the service industry; until that changes and they earn a living wage anyone who participates in the ecosystem should tip at least 20%ā¦
As has been mentioned here and there on this board, it is quite different in France, where servers and waiters get a regular salary and are just as protected by labor laws than other salaried people. Tip, when it is given, consists in rarely more than rounding up the check or adding a couple of euros, it all depends on the place. Larger tips sometimes in high-end places, but they are not expected. Even taxi drivers donāt expect tips anymore since the Euro was introduced. And it could be useful to mention the little-known fact that front-of-house employees in restaurants are as a rule better paid than kitchen employees, which results in a certain amount of latent hostility between one side of the pass and the other. Small change tips, when mutualized in a jam jar, are never dealt to the kitchen team.
@bgut1. Although I wouldnāt be able to stomach as much trad as you did in such a short amount of time, you seem to have done wellā¦ and succumbed to the magic of Paris. Hope you will be able to return for a much longer stay.
Since we locals arenāt as fond of trad as you tourists, I donāt know and never heard of Le Minet Galant (or Tradi). How did you hear about them ? What was the standout dish at Gros Minet ?
Sorry you missed Origines. At this time of the year, they do some of the best game dishes in the Paris but, with an adventurous eater in tow, opting out was probably the best choice.
Where in the world did you get that idea?
Perhaps you should be careful not to present your own tastes and experience as characteristic of all ālocalsā or, as you say, āwe Parisiansā (there isnāt one single type of that).
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From living here. And knowing the quartiers where the chattering classes hang out. There are very few good trad restaurants in the 11th, Faubourg St Antoine, Faubourg St Denis etc. And certainly very little demand for trad unless it is a āvaleur sĆ»reā like the new crop of bouillons and new āoldā brasseries but less than 20 of these in all of Paris. Admittedly, French provincial tourists, suburbanites, and older Parisians are more likely to like trad than under-50 Parisians (the majority of the population).
I personally think we did fine in balancing both traditional and contemporary food as both Le Chardenoux and Don Juan II where well in the contemporary column. As for Le Minet Galant, it was our first day and we were pretty late for a lunch that afternoon and our hotel concierge recommended them at the last moment. The restaurant was not too far from our hotel and the menu and google reviews looked good. As far as food, we tried the beef tartare, escargot, onion soup and chocolate mousse along with a nice glass of pinot noir. The tartare and the mousse were the standouts. Service was friendly and accommodating especially considering we were severely jet lagged at the time. As for why we had tried to book Tradi, I was scrambling at the last minute to find a replacement for Juveniles and chose them due to their reviews on Tripadvisor and their proximity to our hotel. That first evening was an adventure and thankfully Le Grand Colbert was in the area, open and willing to take us as a walk in. Admittedly, the food at Colbert didnāt knock our socks off but it was good for what it was (nice oysters, beet salad and profiteroles), fit the bill for what we had in mind as a quintessential Paris bistro, and was nice for our first evening in Paris. From there our dinners got progressively better at Le Chardenoux and Don Juan II. All in all, I feel the food worked out. If I had a criticism about being near the Opera (which generally I found to be a fantastic location for purposes of touring Paris) is the lack of boulangeries in the area. One more comment if I may - as we drove around Paris (and donāt get me started about your traffic at night), we were astonished by the shear number of bistros and restaurants there were and wondering how all these places were all able to stay in business. You are so very lucky to have such a stunningly beautiful city with all that charm and we canāt wait to return after dipping our toes. I feel we barely were able to scratch the surface of your city but definitely got a taste as to what makes it so special. Hiccups aside the trip was a resounding success. Again, my thanks to all who commented on this thread.
Well I live here too, and I do not find that what you wrote is even remotely true.
Considering that you wrote āSince we locals arenāt as fond as trad as you touristsā, which is a way of characterizing ālocalsā, as much as ātouristsā, in a rather gross manner.
And it isnāt helped by the fact that youāre now trying to push the mayonnaise back into the tube by summoning categories based on neighborhoods, age, āchattering classesā (whatever that is), and touristhood, which actually means the opposite of what you wrote before. So are locals not as fond as trad as tourists or is it actually some locals? Big difference.
(And if itās only āsomeā locals, whatās the use of mentioning that?)
What exactly do you mean by āsuburbanitesā? Itās a big place, the suburbs. Do you mean people in Saint-Germain-en-Laye? Saint-Denis? Montreuil? All āmore likely to like tradā, really?
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Iām in a business where lifestyle trends are researched and analyzed. I donāt do the research myself but have the resources to know that there has been a sharp downturn in the consumption at home and especially in restaurants of trad cuisine in Paris intramuros in the last 20 years. The demand has however remained relatively steady in arrondissements 1, 4, 5, 6, and 7 where tourists tend to cluster.
I donāt do quibbles so please forgive me if I donāt respond to the rest of your remarks.
I think Parn means well overall and I just see it as innocent chatter, mostly meant to steer Americans away from ordering boeuf bourguignon in the middle of Julyā¦ 
There was a comment made about my penchant for ātradā, but I donāt take it personally, mostly because I know full well what I like and dislike and am comfortable with that.
Sometimes I do find it hard defining what is actually traditional cuisine. Is an excellent tartare de boeuf trad? Does trad include eating with the seasons, so wanting to eat asparagus in the spring, and girolles in autumn? Foie gras? Blanquette de veau?
These are all things I like to eat.
Yesterday I had lunch in another modern French restaurant, Bib gourmand Michelin, here in the Netherlands. I had a starter of cod, with smoked eel, oysters, and dollops of cranberry sauce. It was a really nice single dish, all the ingredients together on a small plate, I enjoyed eating it, and found the dish pleasing to the eye and inventive.
While I liked the dish, it didnāt floor me like the bisque of lobster I had a few months ago at a ātraditionalā fish restaurant in Amsterdam. I can still remember all the nuances in taste of the bisque, it was one of the best dishes I had this year.
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Well, precisely. Itās hard to define. And with all the neo, retro, in-the-manner-of, revivals, tributes to the past by very modern-inspired chefs, various pastiches and parodies (deliberate of not), contemporary that isnāt really contemporary, revised traditional, and so forth, youād be hard pressed these days to circumscribe anything answering exactly to the ātradā description.
Even trad is no longer trad, just as the ābaguette traditionā has nothing in common with the French bread of past decades, but this would be taking us too far.
To answer your second ā and pertinent ā question, yes indeed, if something is left of traditional French eating, itās the seasonal aspect. However, this insistence on seasonality is brought forward by young, innovative chefs (those who still have respect for product). So while it is ātradā, it is also a new thing, for it was indeed lost for some time (when I began food writing in the 90s, it was really down in the dumps). So go figureā¦
Once youāve pushed aside the darnded powders, gels, goos, chemical additives of all sorts which marked contemporary cooking about twenty years ago and are now making a comeback for two main reasons (1. Instagrammability and 2. Galloping inflation raising the prices of real food products), it is quite remarkable that the traditional bases of French cuisine (seasonality and product excellence) are now very successful themes in the kit of the trendy, innovative chef.
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This is key to me in deciding where I want to eat. Modern vs trad - I donāt really care as long as they respect seasonality and product excellence.
Hence my example of tartare de boeuf: the success of the dish will not be determined by the chef but by the person buying the beef. The better the beef, the less the chef needs to do other than respecting the produce. This will only appeal to people who know and appreciate this, and not to others who want to see āinventiveā dishes. I see so many āinventiveā tartare de boeufs that are not enjoyable at all.
This is one of my main problems with a lot of āmodernā restaurants, even from well before the current bout of inflation. You pay say 130 euro for a 5 course tasting menu, and then they will serve you say marinated cucumber, three preparations of onion, and a cream of celeriac! Followed by some cheap fish or cheap cut of meatā¦
Iām not denigrating cheap products, in fact I love them (cucina povera). But it would be nice if one gets top quality products if one pays a lot of money for a meal.
This is one of the reasons why I love some Parisian brasseries: they are very democratic. You can have an excellent meal for 30 euro or for 300 euro, you decide.
Rant overā¦ Where and what should we eat?!
I am actually eating choucroute garnie tonight, at homeā¦ We can get excellent French sauerkraut here, made by Andre Laurent, with lardons and Champagne. I wish we could have the variety of sausages available in France though.
Werenāt baguettes formerly referred to as āpain viennois,ā since the steaming/baking method came from Vienna?
Itās been traditional as long as Iāve been alive, which is a considerable amount of time. Before color television.
Anything passed down āfrom age to ageā is traditional. āInventiveā cuisine, by its definition, is always looking for the new, even if its practitioners are mostly copying what their contemporaries are doing.
