Thanks for the wonderful write up. Very personal and honest. I won’t go into detail and still stand at my earlier assessment, that you’ve had a ‘typical’ experience, where managing expectations was key (as you yourself alluded to).
I will say three things.
Hong Kong is one of my favourite cities of all time. Exciting, energetic, but also contemplative. The food is amazing.
That said, I have found the quality of food to be of lesser quality than 5-10 years ago. My visit to Dim Sum Square last year was a shock, compared to 10 years ago. I feel the city is being dragged down by the political upheaval, effecting numerous things. Perhaps even the quality of food.
Mainland China is now the place to be. I was thoroughly surprised by the exceptional quality of cooking in Shanghai last year. Looking at reports here, the quality in places like Shenzhen and Guangdong also seems very good. Perhaps they are now enjoying their moment compared to HK 10 years ago, people feel confident in their future.
the biggest pitfalls for visitors is that Chinese cuisine is served/consumed in portion sizes which necessitate larger groups, and just isn’t conducive to single or couple diners. One would think that many visitors have visited Chinese restaurants in their home countries and would have gotten a sense of this but… apparently not. I keep getting requests to recommend places for singles and couples to go, and they expect a top experience…
Many premium dishes need pre-ordering because they need time to prepare. A roast suckling pig needs to be prepped and takes time to roast. They’re not going to have unlimited number of those already done while hoping someone would show up and order them.
One of the greatest crimes in the last 15 years or so is the emergence of “tasting menus” at top Chinese restaurants trying to cater to tourists who want every dish in single serving size. That’s not how Chinese cuisine is traditionally served, and doing it that way ends up with lots of wastage. It also makes those menus full of dishes that are foreigner-friendly. The first time I tried the tasting menu at Lung King Heen - which had 3 stars back then - I laughed in front of my European friend. All of the dishes were competent but none were spectacular.
Push carts for dim sum have never been the thing at high end Cantonese restaurants. If you want the spectacle or experience, please visit places like Metropole or Maxim’s at City Hall. Places with Michelin stars or those that aspire to have them wouldn’t be caught dead having push carts. Besides, even places with push carts have a difficult time hiring those ladies to push them around.
Honestly this sounds like a you problem? Not trying to personally attack but the post sounds very entitled.
You want to go to restaurants but don’t do enough research to understand whether dishes need to be preordered but expect them to have the dishes on hand for you as needed and are annoyed when they are not. This does not sound like savvy food planning.
Plus you go to a foreign country and expect them to speak English to you?
Dim sum carts you want for your idealized tourist view of how dim sum is consumed but carts have not been common place since the 90s/aughts in hk.
Agree. Dim sum tastes best when served a la minute, not put on a warmer and carted around, which renders them overcooked and changes the textures irrevocably.
That being said, push-cart dim sum harks back to the old days (1950s/60s) where large family restaurants offered these, hoping to tempt diners into ordering more than they could eat. Besides - quantity, rather than quality, was more important to the less discerning diners in those days.
Here in Singapore, Red Star is the only restaurant left that offers push-cart dim sum, a feature which it now markets for nostalgia purposes. It’s also located in a working-class area, where food places lean more towards the rustic and robust in terms of cooking and presentation.
Wow, now this is really a blast from the past! The late Yeung Koon-yat aka Ah Yat’s Forum was the go-to, celebrity-watching restaurant in Hong Kong during its hey-days back in the late-80s and 90s.
The last time I ate there was years ago, and my Hong Kong colleague hosting the dinner was more excited by the fact that two famous HK film directors, Tsui Hark and Wong Jing, were seated at the table right next to ours.
Honestly, if you are looking for “Chinese” food - regardless of type of cuisine. the best way would be to grab more friends to join you so you can order properly.
There are certain restaurants that offer a “tasting menu” which can be ordered per person. They typically cater to tourists and the items on those menus - often a places with Michelin stars - often impress neither the tourists nor locals… Lung King Heen, Forum, Summer Palace / Shang Palace… etc. are all guilty of this.
The places that do tasting portions well are The Chairman and its cousin Tasting Court. The former is impossible to get into as a visitor, so you can try booking the latter. If you were willing to stray away from Cantonese food into other types of Chinese cuisine, Yong Fu now offers both a set lunch and set dinner, and one can always count on them for excellent Ningbo cuisine (sub-branch of Zhejiang cuisine).
Forgot to mention one other thing in my previous reply - dim sum is usually for BREAKFAST AND LUNCH ONLY. I know of no high end Cantonese restaurants serving dim sum for dinner. If I really wanted dim sum items at dinner, I would go to Tasty Congee / Ho Hung Kee since they offer a small selection and do a reasonable job.
Which nearly impossible if you are visiting a country/city where you have never been or have many friends.
But the one thing I don’t understand is that I can’t imaging that people in HK always go restaurant in large groups. Don’t couples or small families (parents with one child) also eat at restaurants for dinner - how do they order dishes ?
if you are a couple and go out for dinner, at a “proper” Chinese restaurant you may just order 2 or 3 dishes. Or at casual places where customers get “one dish meals”. We’re not gonna go to a fancy restaurant as a couple and expect to eat 10 dishes, or a whole suckling pig. I know someone Chinese who travels to HK and dines out alone often. He literally orders a small steamed fish, a plate of vegetables, and a bowl of steamed rice.
I made my first visit to Hong Kong last year, and in contrast, I was so pleased with the experience overall. Some meals were in big groups, but several were solo or just 2 or 3.
I can’t say I was disappointed in the smaller meals any more than I am at home in New York when I have to pick and choose what to order because I can’t eat everything as a small party.
I had a long wishlist of both sub-cuisines and dishes – and didn’t get to most of it either. Also just the way it is. I didn’t want to go to Michelin places, though we ended up at a few, also fine.
Several of my favorite meals were very casual ones – Yat Lok goose, Tasty’s wantun mien, Kam’s char siu, liangpi and spicy salads at the same food court, shandong-style dumplings and more salads ditto, vegan snacks at a Buddhist monastery, various bakery treats, and even at the airport.
I did not have any communication issues, even on my own (and without google translate, which I had downloaded but never ended up using), and found people trying hard to help me make “good” choices lol – whether fellow patrons or staff.
In the end, I felt I had a wonderful experience, even though I didn’t think the food was as vastly superior as I expected relative to what I have been fortunate to eat in places with large diasporas, which I put down to this:
.
So you’re right, expectations probably have the most to do with one’s sum total experience.
They just order what they want to eat for that one meal.
I think you are approaching this in a very atypical (read: tourist) manner.
When natives go to restaurants (much like you would in SF), you simply order what looks interesting or what you find appealing. Your goal for that one meal isn’t to sample the entire menu (or even a good portion of the menu, tasting menus notwithstanding). Nor should it be. Why? Because more likely than not you’ll go back, or at least have the opportunity to go back.
As a tourist, no such option is extant. Which is ok.
When visiting a country as a tourist, and exploring the dining options, go with the attitude of “let me try something here” and not “I need to try everything here.”
It’s not only liberating, but infinitely more enjoyable.
It’s like when I go to a gelateria in Rome. I’m not going to get a scoop of every flavor. And I’m ok with that (even though secretly I wish I could). I simply pick one that I like, and be content that I got to enjoy at least one of the flavors.
I think my misunderstanding was from a previous comment which sounded like most restaurants in HK just have only very large dishes where even a single dish might be too much for 1-2 person. Otherwise I agree that as a couple (or solo diner) you just order a few dishes like you would do anywhere else
I’ve been to HK many times alone and with a partner, and last year with my parents. So three people max in total. It’s perfectly doable, though yes, you’ll have more options the more people are around. For example, I’ve never done hot pot.
I will already have in mind what it is that I want to eat. For example: I want to eat roast goose, so I’ll go to a roast goose place, and then order that plus a few side dishes, eg a half portion of roast pork, white rice, veggies. Or I’ll go into a fancier restaurant, and I’ll be going for a main dish of a whole steamed fish, and then again some secondary dishes. I’ve never been a fan of tasting menus so no issues for me.
For me, HK is also a city where great food is more likely to be found in ‘cheaper’ places, where mostly locals go and not many tourists. From specialised congee shops to dai pai dongs and such. As for push cart dim sum places, I like them more than formal places. It’s just more fun seeing beforehand what you’ll be eating, and also partaking in the experience of trying to grab dishes before other people can!
I’ve been to HK many times. If I were to go again the things I’d most be looking forward are:
experience proper wok hei cooking at a dai pai dong
roast goose
Last time I stayed at the Grand Hyatt and found the food to be great, in the club lounge. So I want to try their Chinese restaurant, both for lunch/dim sum and dinner, and also their buffet downstairs, with massive amounts of fresh seafood.
Family style Cantonese places but outside of the city centre, eg looking at where Lucas Sin is going
And I’d definitely try to combine HK with visiting Shenzhen or even deeper into the mainland. Train connections are very good it seems these days.
Costs have gone up significantly over the last 10 years, while people’s income have been impacted by the downturn in China’s economy. Personally I don’t know Dim Sum Square so can’t comment on quality levels, but F&B is actually in a worse place now compared to the Covid years.
I just got back from 3 days in Shenzhen and went thru a few fine dining places. At the high end Chinese food in China is loads better than HK, since 1) ingredients are better/fresher 2) rent and staff costs are much cheaper, so you basically get better execution at a discount that is easily 50% or more compared to Hong Kong.
At the low end the discount to HK is even greater, so every weekend and major holiday there is a flood of HKers rushing up north of the border to spend their dollars on cheap dining while enjoying their usual massage and shopping. It’s pretty common for HKers to bring groceries back from Shenzhen these days… as we don’t have Costco and Sam’s Club south of the border.
Let me try to address some of the issues you raised, while trying not to sound like I am attacking you…
Not true. You wanted a few signature dishes that required advanced preparation, out of an entire menu that probably listed 80-100 dishes. While you may be well-travelled, how many restaurants in other countries regularly list 100 dishes on their menus? Many Chinese restaurants do that. OBVIOUSLY they cannot have every single dish prepped and available at a moment’s notice. So for a few items where cooking takes longer - and believe me, some Chinese dishes take DAYS to be prepped properly - they require advanced booking.
Rent is VERY expensive in HK, so space is at a premium. Most casual chachaantengs will require you to share tables with total strangers while dining unless your group can take up all the seats at a given table. And they expect you to eat quickly and leave so that the table/seat can be turned and generate more revenue. They didn’t chase you away but I’m not surprised if they were unhappy and eyeing you guys. Since most proper restaurants cater to larger groups of diners, singles and couples taking up a table meant for 6 or more is not ideal for them.
Why would restaurants - especially more casual ones - offer to downsize their regular portions for you? I have seen high end restaurants in select European countries offer half portions of their dishes from ALC menus, but that’s the exception rather than the norm. I’ve already discussed in another reply about the unfortunate case of your expectations versus reality…
You may not think you are a newbie to Cantonese food, but the reality is that you don’t have much experience in high end Chinese food. And across different types of Chinese cuisine, as you move towards the higher end - and you went to some of the top end restaurants for Cantonese food in HK - the flavors become more delicate. This is especially true for Cantonese cuisine, because the emphasis is on the freshness and the quality of the ingredients. Heavier seasoning would mask the flavors of the ingredients.
None of the places you dined at in Taiwan are remotely comparable to the places you went to in HK, in terms of refinement. I’ve been to many of those places so I think I would know. Golden Formosa is not high end in my book, and Taiwanese cuisine is naturally more heavy-handed compared to Cantonese cuisine. Really Good Seafood is a casual place. Kai Fan is a chain Sichuanese catering to the masses, and wouldn’t offer the delicate touches of traditional, classical Sichuanese cuisine.
So it’s not surprising that you found the food you had in Taiwan to be “more flavorful”, although I AM surprised that you made the comment despite having the braised abalone and goose web, whose sauce would be among the richest in Cantonese food.
Anyway… just wanted to offer some perspective. Hope I didn’t come off sounding too harsh…
When we go out to Chinese restaurants in the UK, we end up peering forlornly and with quite a bit of envy at the large groups of Chinese-speaking customers, sometimes multi-generational families and sometimes university students who are dining together at large round tables with an enticing array of dishes served family-style from the Chinese menu (different to the menu that is handed out to non-Chinese customers). They seem to experiencing so much more fun and flavour compared to our little table of 2-3 with our fried rice and sweet and sour chicken.
Sometimes I will try and be brave and ask for the Chinese menu and ask for help and choose something that appeals, which is almost always a lot better than the generic Chinese-for-Western-audience dishes. But what we really want to do is rock up to the large table and request the Chinese group to adopt us as dining companions!
