CCE
(Keyrock the unfrozen caveman lawyer; your world frightens & confuses me)
21
Woah, 5 years. I’ve been using the Zwilling knives I use most often for almost 40 years. I like them fine, so I have no desire to replace, re-use, repurpose, exchange, etc.
If I had someone (like you, with an extensive collection of very different knives) that I could borrow some of those Japanese knives from, I’m sure that I would probably change my tune.
But because I don’t, and because I’m happy with my regular Western-style knives, I’ll probably never have a chance to try the Japanese or other knives all of you are so in love with.
Edit - I should also add that I use these knives a fair bit. They’re about 70 years old
The bottom knife is really heavy and I mostly use it when camping. The others are really nice for boning (top knife, very flexible) and general slicing (middle knife).
These three were all home made by my wife’s grandfather.
I for one am very much aware of the hardness of the steel in my kitchen knives and use them accordingly.
If I’m cutting into a rough pumpkin, a water melon or a rough cabbage head I’ll definitely use one of my Wüsthof or Zwilling knives and not one of my harder more brittle Japanese high rockwell knives.
For general use I do rotate my collection of knives for the fun of it, but find myself more and more often just using my Gyutoh/Chef’s knives and a tournier knife.
I like a pointy knife, and always miss this when I’m using a Nakiri and to an extent a Santoku (which has a more soft point)
I’ve played around with my Wüsthof Chai Dao for some months now and it’s good fun, but it doesn’t give me nearly the same versatility a Gyutoh/Chef’s knife does.
I still enjoy my large collection of kitchen knives, but I may end up selling the knives I don’t particularely find gives me anything extra performance wise.
Personally I don’t think you’re missing out on anything by not trying Japanese style knives.
The more I’m into this hobby the more I realize that a Gyutoh/Chef’s knife and paring knife/Tournier knife can do 95% of the tasks in the kitchen more efficient than if you used a range of Santoku’s, nakiri’s, Bunka’s and what not and you don’t really need any Bunka, Santoku or Nakiri to improve on anything over your trusty Zwilling knives.
Ok, if you want a knife, that stays sharper for longer - consider a SG2/R2 knife - they’ll hold an edge for far far longer than the softer type steel knives. But if you hone your old Zwilling knives before each session, you’re good to go.
In my experience it’s mostly for fun, when you buy a lot of weird named hard steel Japanese knives and not to actually improve on how you prep and cut things in your kitchen.
1 Like
CCE
(Keyrock the unfrozen caveman lawyer; your world frightens & confuses me)
24
Well, Claus, I can definitely understand that. I can’t tell you how many times per month I see a pretty knife advertised and want to try it, just for the fun of it.
I just hold back, though. I’m a curmudgeon! (And a tightwad)
Hi CCE, the deciding point between my Wusthof and the equivalent Zwilling-Henckels model was the bump on the end of the handle. Except for that, I might have gone the other way, duie to the bolster. They are both great companies.
Here’s a comparison review:
Ray
CCE
(Keyrock the unfrozen caveman lawyer; your world frightens & confuses me)
26
Thanks Ray; good overview video. I have sausage fingers (and as I hope you don’t mind me saying I think yours are similar) but for me, I have a more forward grip, so I actually like that curl at the butt of the Zwilling knives for my pinkie finger to grip into - I extend the pinkie out while holding the knife and press it into the curl on the knife butt for stability.
However, my Wusthoffs are small only - lower quality Wusthoff steak knives - so I don’t have anything like your Ikon, and don’t know whether I’d eventually learn to prefer that indent near the front. I suspect I might - in the end, it serves the same function and probably less stressfully so. If so, then I wouldn’t need to have my pinkie pressed out against the butt on the Zwilling.
I am aware of what is going on there, Dezormes, Pataud, etc. along with the enlargement of the Laguiole line, whatever that has come to be. They look novel for the sake of novelty and do not appear to be the stuff a high end kitchen would grab.
Growing up in backwoods America, our knives, at first, were more outdoor hunting oriented, but we were at least aware of kitchen knives that reflected our European heritage. It’s great that you discovered and used your Zwilling knives so long ago. Five years ago was my first time.
They have a very extensive listing of products–both carbon and several different kinds of SS. The carbon that you have are sold in the “antique carbon” category.
The different types of SS appear to be the most frequently sold. One variety parallels the 2 carbon steel categories–including the antique. There are variant handles–including some without the bump at the back. There are also both half and full bolster alternatives.
You may be right, but seem to be offering a generalized comparison between your “antique” K Sabatier knife batterie and your impression of Wusthof–not direct hands on experience.
I’m speculating that the biggest structural difference is that my Wusthof has a substantial tapering from butt to tip and the K Sabatiers are not tapered. Are your antique Sabs tapered?
My Jeune has significant taper. The taper on the TI’s is there by less pronounced. I have no K Sabs, although it appears they may be more or less the same as the Elephant with four stars from TI. I have hands on experience with most of the Wusthof line as well as the Henckel’s line. I hope you get to try some TI carbon steel Sabs. The Nogent are especially fun in my opinion. Your big Wusthof is obviously a very fine knife. The quality and performance of their stamped line is impressive, a terrific lower cost option. If you ever seek out a Sab and do not want to go the used route, I commend Flotsam and Fork as a source.
My main reason for choosing the Classic Ikon handle is the freedom to move forward or back: forward for control; back for power. That freedom takes full advantage of the thick to thin tapering. If I need to chop through a chicken bone using the thick base, I need all the power I can get, so I move back on the handle. If I want to do detailed work near the tip area, I choke up to a pinch grip.
When I purchased my Wusthof Classic Ikon, it was all about that ergonomic handle. I later learned how the tapering could allow my Wusthof to do it all through my own experiences, and suggestions from users.
There was one in particular who had used the Classic Ikon professionally for many years–explaining how he used the tapering to exploit Wusthof versatility.
It didn’t stop me from moving to the damascus hard steel knives that I now use the most, but I knew–and know–that it can do everything I need in my home kitchen.
I own only one Wusthof knife, a classic ikon creme 16 cm chef so I can only compare to that one live here at my home. I have here the 6 inch K sab authentique new prod olive handle stainless chef and a 6 inch old old stock nogent carbon chef. The taper on all three of these is very close the same, the Sabs seem a tiny tad thinner spined.
Wusthof classic ikon creme 16 cm
8 inch new old stock carbon nogent
10 inch new old stock carbon with plastic handle
10 inch new old stock stainless Canadian
10 inch new production au carbone olive
11 inch new old stock carbon nogent
The old stock refers to the antique series’ on their site. Authentique is new production.
The pictures may not be perfect, but there is taper in each of the Sab old stock blades I have, but they aren’t all the same. The plastic handled old stock chef is notably the thinnest of the lot, it tapers quite thin indeed, “laser” thin basically.
The Sabs are what I have been reaching for the most, more often than my several Japanese knives
The Sabatier-K link is intriguing. On many of the knives they specify 100% forged, but I did not see that on the G10, which appears to be a pricey line.
Thanks for the comparisons of taper. It’s really the taper that allows my 8" Wusthof Classic Ikon to have the Chef Knife versatility I need. I still grab for it from time to time for some rock chopping. However, it’s mostly just a backup knife to my harder steel knives that are so much more fun to use.
My Kai Shun Fuji functions as an awesome Chef knife–with a long, grippable, reimagined octagonal handle, and 141 layer sg-2 damascus. It still manages to feel like the update of my Wusthof that it is.
My 7" hollow ground Kai Shun Kaji Santoku sg-2 has a similar updated Wusthof feel, with a final mirror finish that is a bit surprising in a damascus knife.
Those are my grabbable “stars” these days in my kitchen.
Hope you had a great vacation trip!
1 Like
CCE
(Keyrock the unfrozen caveman lawyer; your world frightens & confuses me)
38
I’ve used the thick heel portion of the blade for heavy gristle, but I’d be afraid of damaging even that heavier portion chopping through chicken bones. But I rarely need to cut through bones anyway - mostly I just part a chicken at the joints, which is slick/easy (just tendon separation if you get right at the joint, maybe a small disc of cartilage cut off if I’m in a hurry). For butterflying a whole chicken I use shears.
I’ve only done a few Indian-style and Jamaican-style stews where all the pieces were broken down into sub-parts but still with the bone pieces in, and in those cases I bought a whole (or what had been a whole) chicken pre-prepped in that style.
For you the fun vs not fun is working. For me it is impeccable technique leading to impeccable dishes. Everything else is, to some degree, wrong to me.
