Cleavers: types and uses

Cooking Discussions Cookware
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No mystery, Kaleo,

and he says it well. He’s a home cook who’s discovered a whole world of kitchen knives that he enjoys trying out at home. Like me, it began with a trip to Japan and knives brought back that he failed to appreciate. Also like me, he went to German knives to get above his own local knife culture.

Then he was ready to have fun. So far, it hasn’t stopped for either of us.

Where we differ the most is that we live–day by day–in completely different cultural worlds. I especially notice the difference because I grew up in a part of the United States that is geographically similar to Finland–had an Aunt who was part of a wonderful Finnish family,

and

my best friend, through college, was of Finnish decent, and from a nearby town.

Now, when I go to the grocery store in SOCAL, it would probably help if I could speak Mandarin. Even my Cantonese friends are having trouble . . .

Ray

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Hi Chem,

In addition to the slicers, choppers, and other Chinese cleavers in your collection, what Japanese knives do you regularly use as a home cook at home–and what foods do you prepare. I’d find that very interesting.

If you’re using the Japanese knives extensively, you’ve developed your own home cook cultural fusion in Canada . . .

Ray

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I don’t understand what this statement is about. What does it mean I developed my cultural fusion in Canada? To be clear, I live in US, and never in Canada. Is that the part of confusion?

To your other question, is it about Japanese knives? For true traditional Japanese knives, the one I use the most is a Nakiri (Watanabe Nakiri with Yasuki blue steel core). I have an usuba, but I do not use that much.
I have a few gyuto (chef’s knife like) and santoku if you count them.

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Sorry, Chem, for some reason, I thought you lived in Toronto.

Question still applies. We develop our cultural fusion wherever we live–it’s multicultural with knives if there are knives that might or might not be used together.

Most important question is what you cook with them–and when you use the Japanese vs. (or with) the Chinese knives (especially the CCK slicers).

How do they fit in your prep work?

I’ve lived on the East Coast.

In NY, mostly in Ithaca, but spent time in NYC as well. In Ithaca, I worked actively in food culture and did observations at our Statler Hotel test restaurant as a faculty member. In NYC, I stayed at condos in Manhatten and observed a different world. Back at Ithaca, I was in charge of an international dormitory with graduate student open kitchens for students from all over the world to use next to my office.

That’s where much of my interest began.

Ray

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Chem…just as an aside, I recently got a Watanabe Nakiri from Shinichi Watanabe…I’m mostly a Takeda user, but was not able to find one of his Nakiris… I liked the Watanabe so much I just ordered a Petty and a Gyuto from his as well. He makes a very nice knife.

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I really like Watanabe too. I feel like his reputation is more on the rustic side and Takeda is a little more refined. I am talking about reputation.

At that time, I actually asked Mr. Watanabe Shin to custom my knife a little. His standard dimension is 4.5 mm thick at near the heel and 1.6 mm at the tip.

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I asked him to custom thinning my knife to 3.5 and 1.0 mm. He was nice enough to work with me. I heard his father is a great knifesmith but less willing to make these adjustments. Mostly his father worried people asking to make knives too thin and not durable. Looking back to my email, I cannot believe I bought my Watanabe knife more than 10 years ago. My conversation and my memory just seems to be like much more recent.

In short, my Watanabe knife is somewhat unpolished at the handle (there were gaps), but the blade is perfect. The dimension is great, and the blade can take on a real sharp edge and hold to it. As much as I like my CCK knives, I have to give the edge sharpeness and retention to my Watanabe. My Watanabe can take on almost a 10-12o angle (each side) and hold to the edge for awhile. My CCK cannot. My CCK can take on more of a 15o and hold.

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Does Mr. Takeda willing to work with customers to make the blade shorter, longer, thinner…etc?

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Shosui Takeda has closed his online store and no longer takes orders on his website…so you are correct. I agree that the Watanabe blade is just perfect…so I am very excited to receive the Petty and Gyuto.

Goodness I wish he made a Chuka Bocho.

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Hmm? I thought he does. Let me look

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Here. But they are not inexpensive. They are in the price range of $700-1000

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OK, Chem,

Let me try again. Our OP, Alarash, has been way ahead of me in discovering and integrating several Chinese cleavers into his personal multicultural batterie–but just ruined one on a bone and is looking for suggestions. You gave him a bunch of possibilities,clarified the difference between slicers and choppers, informed him you had 20-25 of them–but never told him which ones you used as a home cook–or how you used them in prepping.

To make it even more interesting, you’ve indicated you have some high end artisan Japanese knives that you’ve apparently integrated with your Chinese cleavers.

I’d love for you to tell us how it works in your home kitchen as you prepare your meals–sort of like damiano has done.

Ray

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Ray,

I won’t say I am clarifying the difference between slicers and choppers to Alarash. I think Alarash know which is why he grabbed the thicker one he can find. Alas, it wasn’t enough. He clearly already knows he need a thicker one. I was simply agreeing with him that his two knives are not thick enough and that that there are some thick Chinese style cleavers (real cleavers) and some Western style cleavers like Dexter.

Those statements are for Pertti and others. I am not suggesting to use those as bone cleavers.

To be honest, I have many high quality knives I enjoy from relatively low budget CCK knives to slightly more expensive Watanabe knives. Many of them are very much interchangeable. When one knife get dull, I switch to another knife. Now, obviously I do not interchange a thin blade knife with a thick blade knife. There was a topic about how often we sharpened our knives and I stated that I rotate my knives until they get dull.

It isn’t so much that I use CCK KF1301 for carrots, and Watanabe Nakiri for cabbages. Far more likely, I use Watanabe Nakiri because my other knives are getting dull (which I have been using Watanabe for the last couple of weeks).

Is this your question about how I use my knives in my kitchen? Or do you mean something else?

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Thanks, Chem,

Helps a great deal. There’s still the question of when you use Chinese cleavers vs. Japanese Artisan knives.

Damiano claims that he mostly uses a Chinese cleaver for up to 95% of his home use, but the Sugitomo he uses is a Japanese upgrade of another Japanese vg-10 Shun–not Chinese at all. He does have a CCK, and a European cleaver, but also several Japanese Artisan knives–including a deba. He seems to have them mostly as an enthusiast rather than a dedicated tool.

I find that all very interesting. His collection and use are great examples of multicultural fusion in the kitchen.

What about you?

Ray

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Everything is an example of cultural fusion to you, Ray. They’re just knives; some look more like others, some less.

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Hi Ray,

Actually my set up and user routine has some similarities with chemicalkinetics. For example, I also have a Watanabe knife, a 225mm gyuto. And for relatively simple tasks I just pick what is on hand - usually first pick being my Herder petty as it’s always lying on top of my kitchen counter, and then also my Sugimoto.

Typical example: yesterday I needed to cut a small onion, a celery stalk, and a carrot for a soffrito to be used in a soup. Nothing else needed cutting - simple task. Either of the two knives would have worked well, and I picked the Sugimoto.

Sometimes for these simple tasks I feel the urge to bring out the Watanabe or my Munetoshi petty.

These four are my general multi-purpose knives. And to some extent, like chem, I just pick whatever is sharp or easy to grab.

The Sugimoto is a great all-rounder: sturdy enough for tougher jobs like cutting pumpkins or cheeses, but the small cleaver shape makes it nimble enough to do all cooking tasks fast and efficiently.

The Watanabe is a longer knife, and the steel is both sharper and thinner than the Sugi. But it’s not a fragile knife (no laser). This is a great knife for cutting lots of produce fast and efficiently, but the bigger size means you have to be more aware of what you’re doing, so for example the kitchen counter should be tidy and clean. As it’s a beautiful knife (burnt chestnut handle) I don’t want to use it that often to keep it somewhat good looking.

The Munetoshi 165mm petty is a great knife for precision work and small quantities, for example if I have to really dice an onion thinly. My new Ashi Ginga petty can also function like this.

My German Robert Herder carbon petty is just the best knife I’ve ever had: it’s always sharp, patina from the carbon is easily removed so I don’t have to baby it, the steel is extremely thin but still sturdy. It’s my benchmark for cutting so to speak. I use it for opening up DHL packages to slicing onions.

Finally I have some specialty knives, like the Masamoto KS deba and KS sujihiki, the CCK bbq chopper, a Misono for breaking down poultry and a Munetoshi butcher. And then of course the Thai Kiwis.

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I love using the Chinese style knives. They are great for what I do. However, I think it is a little bit of a misnomer (half truth) that Chinese people only need one Chinese kitchen knife for their kitchen tasks. It is not entire wrong, but it is repeated again and again in a way that is leading. This behavior is not because the Chinese kitchen knife is special.
Frankly, the Western German/French chef knife is just as versatile, if not more. Most Western chef’s knife has a nice thin tip and a relatively thick heel. It can handle a slightly wider range of activities. This is why I (or anyone) can switch from a Western chef knife to a Japanese gyuto to a Japanese Santoku to a Chinese thin blade slicer. It may feel a little unusual at first, but it is not that difficult. Now, that is different than trying to use a thin blade paring knife and interchange with a thick blade meat cleaver.

The fact that Chinese people use one knife for their kitchen has more to do with the people, than the knife. Chinese people also mainly use chopsticks too. It is not like chopsticks are more versatile than knife and fork. I think it is important to distinguish these.

I just want to make that clear.

Sugitomoto and Shun Chinese slicer are Chinese style knives despite made in Japan. Let me give you an example. A Zwilling Profession S Chef’s knife is a German style chef’s knife made in German.
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A Zwilling International Chef’s knife is a German style chef’s knife made in China.
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I considered both of them German style Chef’s knives.

A wok is a wok despite it is made in China or made in USA.

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Hi Ray. I just want to be clear. I am not trying to avoid your questions. It is just your questions are phrased in a way that I do not know how to answer them.

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Great post,

I began with a foundational cleaver, my Kai Seki Magoroku nakiri by accident about 35 years ago, and it moved to center stage like yours even before I had a hobby. However, mine was the Japanese home cook “only” knife that had morphed into a santoku and was spreading like mad when I finally got involved in cooking as a hobby–and my first chef knife, the Wusthof Classic Ikon, was a step in the other direction with soft enough metal that I could carry out a vertical chop without any risk of chipping—even a few chicken bones.

I still haven’t given that up.

I even found my equivalent of your Robert Herder in my Wusthof Precision–which is sitting next to my computer right now and is used every day.

Chem’s Chowhound CCK threads led me to a neighborhood restaurant supply shop to look them over, but they were no apparent upgrade to my workhorse nakiri, now supported by Wusthof.

I also followed your posts using a Japanese-American version of a Chinese cleaver as a real alternative to my Wusthof/Seki Magoroku–but I didn’t see Shun’s vg-10 as especially helpful–the handle didn’t work for me, and the price point was way out of my range.

I followed your interests in the Sugimoto far enough to hold several of them–loved the design–but was even more put off by the price point considering how well my home cook nakiri had been performing all these years with steel already at the edge of a chipping point–at a fraction of the cost.

I went in a different direction–back to China, with seemingly unlimited production to serve 1.3 billion people. The Chinese all around slicer that jumped out seemingly like my 35 year old nakiri did in Japan was the Shibazi 4X8 (regular size) for $33. It had far more positive reviews worldwide than any other.

I bought one–and it blew me away. Almost at the same time, Chef Panko did a formal review–and explained why: the angle shouldn’t be quite so acute, and the metal shouldn’t be quite so hard–and the weight needs to be just right.

I’ve now had it for a year, and it’s finally given me my worry free vertical chop and scoop that I’ve been missing for so long.

I’m not planning to buy another one–not even the ones that can easily chop small bones like Chef Panko demonstrates.

Ray

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Hi Chem,

This is very helpful. It’s still best for me if you can add some examples of how you use your own specific knives on a regular basis in your home kitchen.

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Hi Chem,

You’re doing great!

:grinning: