Sincere question here…I cannot find a clear statement of what dual core is. Do you have a definition? An illustration might help. To my over-simplistic mind it all comes down to what the edge metal is. Cladding impacts weight and balance and susceptibility to rusting or patination. Does it impact the edge and the way the knife actually cuts? BTW I am just asking out of curiosity as I am in a monogamous and committed long term relationship with my current knives.
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Hi Vechiouomo,
Cangshan has been endorsed by Thomas Keller, and featured on Williams Sonoma. They’re a pretty big time manufacturer–and pretty diverse. The Williams Sonoma products use Swedish Steel.
They may be the biggest Chinese company selling product in their own name through established providers in the USA.
Ray
Whew…I’ve read and reread this thread without a lot of understanding what in the hey you are talking about.
Frankly, damascus steel knives do nothing for me. They can be pretty, but it’s not worth the added expense to me that a real damascus entails.
When it comes to knives in general…not just in the kitchen, I buy the maker first, then the steel and the heat treat. It’s the guy hammering and grinding that makes the difference, (with a nod to my friend Audra Draper ABS master smith). As I have posted here and on our dear departed other forum, the knives I use every day are made by Shosui Takeda, Murray Carter, Joel Bukiewicz and Shinichi Watanabe. I’ve also been trying out some more budget knives from the folks from Vietnam, Daovua.
Yes…some knife makers will clad their knives with a different steel, some do it to clad a carbon steel with a stainless steel for corrosion resistance, some may do it for ease of sharpening…I dont know, I am not a knife maker.
That said…for me…the key to a great kitchen knife is the maker, their grinds, and their heat treat. i think it makes all of the difference. Which is why I buy and use knives made by makers or companies I trust completely. There is a quote in the knife makers universe that goes “Are you going to trust your life with a five dollar knife?”
Custom makers and small shops turn out consistently good knives. Their grinds, their bevels, their heat treat can make an old school carbon steel into a food slayer in the kitchen.
Damascus, cladding, fusion knives…no offense Ray, but I just dont pay attention to it. I guess I am just old school, and let much smarter minds than me who design and make knives make them for me…then I use them for their intended purpose. I’ve been around long enough to have broken, chipped, and taken the tip off of many an inexpensive and poorly made knife.
Kitchen knives…give me a good carbon steel any day. Recently I’ve been partial to Aogami Super Blue steel in knives as an all around steel. For my pocket knives and fixed blades…I like a variety of steels, most of my pocket knives were made by Ernest Emerson and are out of 154CM. My Strider knives are mostly of S30V, my Tom Mayo blades are Talonite and 6K, and most of my small fixed blades are 3V, Nitro V, and 6K. I live near the ocean and spend a lot of time on the water, so for the knives I carry, I prefer some corrosion resistance.
In the end, I think it is the perfect storm of not just the steel, but the maker, the grind, and the heat treat.
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Hi wabi,
great post. I have more than one friend here and several collaborators outside that have similar perspectives. As you’ve read here in several threads, I have a completely different point of view, coming from a very different voyage through life.
What I’m hoping you might do, is to give us a clear view of the knives you use at home–your “batterie”–how you use them to prepare meals–and how frequently you use each knife: photos if you can.
I’d also like you to explain how your usage has changed over the years:
It’s preparing those meals . . . .
That’s when the rubber hits the road. . .
I just did, Ray. The lameness of trumpeting CAD/CAM is substantive when it comes to knives. It is how knives are made on a commercial scale. It’s your self-aggrandizement that lacks substance.
What can you tell us about dual core (also not new) that is actually informative?
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I agree. The quality of the original steel is important, but it is only one of the many factors. At the end, they need to all come together. The quality of a knife is limited by its weakest link. This is no different than a dish. Poor ingredients will limit the quality of the dish, but so will a poor chef. An overall good design, and good grinds are important.
The nesting knives are a set of beautiful looking but presumably horrible set of knives to use in practice. It is difficult to tennis-racket grip (aka death grip) the Chef’s knife. There is not knuckle clearance. It is also difficult to use a pinch grip because of the very large hole.
This is just an extreme example, but there are certainly subpar knife designs (in shape or in grind) for many knives.
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Hi Vecchiouomo,
dual core.
I’ve posted quite a few videos already on this. I stay away from damascus, which is now used to refer to the outside skin of a hard steel knife–treated to show a pattern.
Dual core knives are made with 2 complementary steels that somehow function like a mono steel knife: except they’re sharper.
That’s the historic claim and target for development.
So far, both the Shun dual core, and the Xinzuo gyoto deba I’ve tried out seem right on target.
Hi Wabi,
The main intent of this thread has been to explore dual core performance hands on–and it just furthers the mystery for me.
You’ve done a great job of laying out your perspective–which is more similar to mine than you might think.
My first purchase of a knife (a gift) was a Swiss Army knife–and I still trust Victorinox. My first rethink came with the Kai Seki Magoroku nakiri I was given 30 years ago, and Kai Shun is still a knife brand I trust. When I looked for a Chef knife, it was Wusthof that I chose–and Wusthof is still a company I trust.
I don’t personally know any blacksmiths or designers, but the approach and designs of Ken Onion have led me to purchase several Ken Onion knives.
The lesser known Shun Kaji and Fuji that I own are probably the closest to the designer knives that you own.
Hi kaleo,
I want to say this carefully in a positive way. When you return to the boards, I’d like you to provide and evaluate (with links)–rather than just questioning and commenting. There is quite a bit I’m doing in dual core–especially XinZuo dual core–that I’m not ready to discuss here yet, but I’m hopeful. So your links could help a great deal.
For example, I have a friend who reads Chinese at a professional level and has translated some materials that came with my Xinzuo gyoto deba. So far, I’m not ready to report what he’s found-or further progress.
I’d like you to divulge sources and links to dual core–things you’ve suggested you know about–when you’re ready.
I’d also like you to tell us about your personal batterie of knives–and how you use them in your home kitchen–with pictures–if you’re comfortable doing that. You did at least some of that with your copper collection at Chowhound.
There are plenty of positive ways we can collaborate on discussions to the benefit of everyone at Hungry Onion.
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Today I gave my Seki Magoroku Kinju Deba as a birthday present for a colleague who works with me–from a village by the sea in the Mideast. He plans to bring it home the next time he visits and use it on the large fish they catch.
Now I only have my Gyuto Deba–which is enough!
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