Can this dual core Gyuto Deba be my new butcher knife?

“sustainable” is a key concept in a kitchen! I get it that at a microscopic (sometimes greater) level the edge of a blade falls short of the ideal of two converging planes. I just cannot imagine the edge of one blade made of layered or dual core construction being inherently sharper. To my mind that edge or a carbon steel edge can be made equally as sharp as the skills and tools of the sharpener will allow.

It seemed as if it were being posited that because of its construction a laminated, damascus, or dual core blade could be made more sharp than another steel could.

I wasn’t positing that. Still there are a lot of applications where a knife with tooth feels sharper. What I will posit is that between a monolithic blade rendered in X steel and the same blade rendered in X layered with a softer steel (provided there are enough layers) there will be more tooth on a micro level.

A lot of damascus uses alloys that are chosen to show contrast. But you could just as easily choose two “supersteels”, each of which have the metallurgical properties necessary for a >62 RC and a 13-degree bevel. I submit laid up together, there would be more tooth than either alloy used singly. That difference may or may not be perceptible as better sharpness.

I thought Ray might have been positing that, but it was not entirely clear.

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Vecchiouomo,

The Shun dual core seems to outperform it’s hardness by one or more Rockwell levels.

Explanations in terms of toothiness are not convincing.

The performance of the Xinzuo 110 layer dual core knives are still unexplored.

Ray

Then you and Breadcrumbs should get a microscope.

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It makes a difference to have purchased and used these dual core knives in our home kitchens. Dr. H has let me use his santoku for several weeks several times where I can compare it side by side to my sg2 Kaji and sg2 birchwood. It performs about the same, but each knife feels a little different.

I’m looking at my Xinzuo 110 layer deba right now–just took it out of it’s grabbable slot. It’s single bevel, and clearly has no micro-serrations. Compared with my Japanese Seki Magoroko Kinju deba, it does show extra performance.

I need to find another ribeye steak to prepare at home . . .

Ray

I agree with you. Although the quality of the metal has an effect on the how small the cutting edge can get. Most steel can be sharpened reasonably sharp for kitchen knife purpose. The bigger effect is how well it can hold that edge. I can sharpen two knives to equivalent sharpness, but one knife can lose that edge in1-2 cooking sessions and the other knife can hold on for a month.

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It may not have very small, consistent, evenly spaced serrations as such, but at a microscopic level it will have minor imperfections which, greatly magnified, may seem like divots. There are plenty of extreme close ups of razor blades showing such, not to mention all manner of knives. Your single bevel can be sharpened to an extremely acute angle and polished to a very fine line edge, and if it has the best steel for such an edge and is used appropriately, it can hold that edge better than a carbon steel or less hard stainless that is also ground and polished to a similar edge.

Not making sushi or sashimi myself, while I can respect the achievement of such edges, I do not believe they are inherently better for use in a kitchen. In fact, given the careful treatment they require, I would not have one in my block.

Also, I am fascinated, seriously, by the idea of using a knife with a ribeye other than to slice it for serving. How do you use your knife in preparing a ribeye?

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It’s not “although”; that’s essentially the whole ballgame.

I think you’re being hyperbolic if you contend the range of edge-holding is as wide as 1 meal to 90. If an edge goes dull in a single home cooking session, it’s defective, e.g., was not hardened properly or somehow lost it’s temper. And lasting a month indicates uses that aren’t challenging.

A fairer comparison for rangefinding purposes would be something like counting clean cuts through sisal rope. There, I’m confident you would not find a 90x difference.

Your question raises an excellent point, Tim. The general answer is that you don’t need a $$$ single-bevel, superhard J-knife to slice a steak.

Actually, you don’t need one to slice an entire shift’s sushi servings, either. You might WANT one if your business and reputation depend on perfectly clean cuts and the perfectly symmetrical, proportional shapes of sushi and sashimi.

We know, a priori, that Ray’s supermarket ribeye did not arrive in such a state of perfection, and no later creation of perfection was done with a J-knife.

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Hi Vecchiouomo,

I’m sure that both dual core knives have micro serrations of the type you descrfibe, but not the mini serrations implied in promotional literature for the Shun dual core.

I use the deba almost the same as my old butcher knife–to trim the fat off and shape the steak.

Ray

What I am getting at is that the quality of steel can determine how sharp the initial edge can be. However, that is a smaller play. Vast majority of knives can be sharpened to a fine edge. How long it can hold that edge is where people can experience a bigger difference.

I won’t say the steel wasn’t harden properly. When two knives at very sharp angle say 10-12 degree edge angle, they both can initially attend that very sharp angle, but one can quickly lose that initial sharpness very quickly. It doesn’t mean the knife stop working as a knife or even dull, but another knife can hold it much longer. Now, if I sharpened both of these knife at 20 or even 25 edge angle, then both can hold on that initial sharpness for a long time.

What I am replying to Vecchiouomo is that most steels can attain an initial sharp edge with small edge angle. However, they do not hold that edge in the same duration when the edge angle get smaller and smaller. I can sharpen some of my cheap 420J steel knives to a very fine edge, but most will lose it right away.

As for 1 to 90 meals, I have to say I was only talking to my own experience, and I do not prepare 3 meals a day. Back then, it was more like once every two days. So more like a 1-2 cooking session vs 15 cooking sessions.

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Kaleo,

This is a great analysis of a layered approach to dual core damascus, consistent with advertising suggestions that micro serrations will appear reflecting differences in wear as the knives are maintained and resharpened.

Close viewing suggests that both the Shun and the Xinzuo dual core edge are composite amalgamations rather than a collection of serial serrations–as classic damascus craftsmen have claimed for centuries. The only evidence for a micro serration effect has been the toothiness that has been reported with some Shun dual core sharpening.

Explanations in terms of serial micro serrations is especially problematical with the 110 layer Xinzuo products that don’t feature that scotch plaid alteration of the Shun dual core-or the more recent “hornet’s nest” Shun Hikari:

image

In use, in my kitchen, both the Shun and the Xinzuo feel very similar to my sg-2 Shun Fuji and Miyabi Birchwood: two or more Rockwell levels harder.

What is most different from handmade layered dual core in both the Shun and Xinzuo manufactured dual core is the possible use of CAD/CAM in designing a reliable, repeatable process. That could also be true even making a small number, or even a single knife, since more and more tools have been obtaining higher precision with a CAD/CAM interface, but this is the very information producers are least willing to share openly in detail.

What is for sure, is that Kai Shun continues to design variation on their dual core technology for their most expensive products. most recently the Kai Shun Engetsu series:

There are plenty of unanswered questions about dual core. It’s something I will continue to explore.

Ray

Your word count should not confuse readers into believing you know what you’re talking about, Ray. Respectfully, you don’t.

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Kaleo,

You provided a great basic explanation of a layering approach that made it easier for me to provide some real world context.

The best explanation I’ve seen posted so far was in a video interview of Niko Nikolaides. The image quality is not the best, and the interviewer might be a bit too “Michigan,” but I think Niko explains it really well:

Sorry, Ray, but you’re just not living in the real world when it comes to cutlery.

Why do you insist on demeaning folks who know better by faint praise (just “basic”) then pretending to have advanced knowledge (“real world context”) you actually lack?

I wasted the time to watch this entire video. The dropout 23-y-o guy in this YouTube video (shot in his parents’ attic) has been making knives for 2 years full-time. As bladesmiths go, this guy’s a novice. I wish him well, but this video evinces no advanced state of knowledge or skill.

This is the best video on pattern welded steel you could find?

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Kaleo,

You’ve made many personalizations about me, which are always off topic, and lead us away from interesting discussions–not just on dual core by any means. It’s not the way to go.

The next step, in dual core, is for you to get involved substantively, which I welcome.

That means to articulate–and support–an alternative to my claims and experiences with these knives. I’m aware of alternatives to 1. the layering approach that Niko describes,2. a complete composite approach, and 3. steps in between.

You want me to find better videos than the Niko interview, without going beyond your personalized comments on Niko? Once again, judgemental statements lacking substance, leading away from dual core discussions.

Your personalized comments on him are much like your comments on me. What’s missing, are your comments on dual core layering. His real world detailed examples go well beyond your abstract philosophical impressions.

I’ve already posted videos of a blacksmith doing the type of layering you described in your post above. Why haven’t you commented on that? It suggests to me that you’re not really serious about dual core at all.

Then there’s the matter of CAD/CAM. It’s not clear to me that you have been following applications of CAD/CAM to knife design and manufacture at all–even reading about it. Niko talked about that quite a bit.

Get involved in substance. There’s plenty more to discuss in dual core besides how much I don’t know–in your opinion.

Substantive dual core discussions have been going on for centuries.

Ray

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Ray, CAD/CAM, like induction, is old hat, virtually unremarkable. On both subjects, you make it sound as if you’re a wizened authority, announcing it to the world. You’re just not, no matter your self-description as “aware”. If you take that personally, I’m sorry. It’s not intended that way.

You know how many budding and would-be bladesmiths are playing with making patterned steel? Probably thousands in USA alone. Yet you pick this newb guy’s (and the Michigan trade group) YouTube as the best explanatory video you can find? He doesn’t even know what an integral knife is.

You get involved with substance before you spout off as knowledgeable. Find an ABS 'smith or 6 and read about patterned steel. Here’s a novel idea: Ask some questions for a change. Take a forge welding lesson. You can’t just buy a fish knife on line, cut cheese with it, and claim expertise. Constantly referring to yourself “mentoring post-doc students” doesn’t pass for culinary or cookware mastery.

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And so it goes, Kaleo,

I’ll be happy to respond when you post something of substance in a respectful manner.

Ray

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Ray, you may need a Cangshan, new on SLT. Designs and names are Japanese, and everything else is Chinese. The prices are high but not exorbitant.

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