I recall reading (on here somewhere?) that the difference between USA and European restaurants is that in the USA food ingredients are relatively cheap, labor is VERY expensive. And in Europe it’s opposite - ingredients are expensive, labor is (relatively) cheap.
No way to know whether that is currently true.
At least based on price comparisons in supermarkets (restaurants won’t pay the same prices as consumers but the ratio should be similar) ingredients are significantly cheaper in Europe. When we were in Germany and Italy this year produce, dairy, meat etc in supermarkets are half of what we have to pay in the US
I think you may have that reversed. I had the same experience as @honkman in Italy in fall 2022–supermarket produce, meat, cheese, and charcuterie were laughably cheap by US standards. And it’s pretty clear that the business model for US restaurants is constructed on very cheap labor, both in the kitchen (many immigrants, many of whom are undocumented) and in the dining room (where the customer is expected to make up most of the server’s income via tips).
It really depends on where you live in the US, and where you visit in Germany and Italy, and other parts of Europe.
I think Honkman lives in the Bay Area, which has a much higher cost of living than most parts of the States.
I can see Bay Area prices being higher than Germany or some Italian prices.
Whenever I’m traveling alone in Europe, I set out a loose base budget, and I tend to keep my lunches to less than 20 Eu and most of my dinners to less than 35 Eu in Germany, Austria, Italy and Greece. (Haven’t visited other EU countries in the past 10 years).
I find I can eat better in Germany or Italy on 50 Euros a day than I’d be able to eat in London, UK or NYC.
Sweden and Switzerland cost a lot more than Germany or Italy, and Portugal and Czech Republic are bargains.
Also, even in Italy, prices can vary so much depending on region and neighbourhood.
It is not only in SF but having lived or visited San Diego, LA, Boston, different parts of Maine, New Hampshire etc - everywhere the prices are much higher than in nearly every parts of Europe. And yes, Switzerland is expansive but having also there for some time even there the supermarket cost tend to be not higher for many ingredients than for example anywhere in California or Boston
Reminds me of this lively discussion I started here about a year ago.
Agree with you that, on average, eating both in and out is less expensive in Europe than compared to the U.S.
However, that has to be taken in context. Because the cost of living is generally less expensive in the EU (compared to the US) and so are wages.
The thread that @linguafood linked covers some of the reasons.
The reasons why dining out in parts of Europe felt so much cheaper than doing the same in the US are essentially linked to several larger macro reasons. The median income in the US is higher than most EU countries. The US economy has recovered much stronger than the EU post covid. That has been demonstrated by what the Fed has done compared to the ECB. Now that the market is expecting the Fed to start the easing cycle, the strength of the dollar versus other currencies like the euro will fade. The euro has been climbing recently. When I was visiting 2 years ago when the euro was less than a buck, it felt like everything was on sale. Things would have felt far more expensive if the euro was ~$1.40 like it was 10 years ago. When I was working in the UK around the turn of the century, the dollar was very weak. I would go out to dinner and look at a menu and all the prices would seem the same as what you would see in NYC except the currency was in sterling which meant at the time it was 2x in dollars. That was painful when you’re an American working in Europe being paid in dollars.
And yet, all the Germans* are complaining about everything being more expensive.
Yes, all of them. I spoke to each and everyone.
Lot of crying here, too. I was a kid in the 70’s and this ain’t crap. Those who’ve lived during a wartime would think this is paradise. Relative to the times. A few years ago, grocery items were fairly close in price between WI and AZ. Now, I can’t get over the prices in grocery stores in Phoenix. I have the meat advantage because of geography; but other things are a bit more spendy down there.
Sorry John that’s just lazy bad parenting.
How can that be remotely true when the USA society are happy to see waiting staff paid an absolute pittance, the employer often doesn’t contribute to medical care. The employee relies on the suckers that frequent the restaurant to subsidise their wages.
Someone is talking shite somewhere.
Employment costs are one of the biggest components on a European P & L sheet.
That’s the thing. Those “suckers”, as you call them, subsidize the wages to an extent a lot higher than if the restaurants would be paying their workers a “living wage” - at least, in the estimation of those workers themselves.
There have been quite some number of studies on this, where it has been tried to kill off the US “tipping” standard and instead pay the wait staff a “living wage”. They don’t seem to think they’re being paid “an absolute pittance”.
And seriously - if they were being paid “an absolute pittance”, why wouldn’t they take their feet to the ground and go find a job where they weren’t being so horribly oppressed?
Those efforts to kill off the tip system in the U.S., so far, seem to have universally failed. (Note I’d be happy to see it go, though. But I don’t care too much one way or the other. I don’t have any dogs in this fight.)
Some commentary, both pro- and con- and fairly even-handed analysis.
I worked for tips while i was a college student and in all of my jobs i made way more than any of my non-tipped friends.
A lot of Chinese restaurants seem to have small and large portions for a lot of stuff. Whether that is only tak-out or also for dine-in depends on the restaurant.
The flip side of this is a BBQ restaurant near us that offers a lunch menu (which I think is the same quantity as dinner, but cheaper), but only for dine-in. If you order take-out, even at lunchtime, they charge the dinner price. (I’ve also been told that the management pockets the tips on take-out orders, and it could be these have dropped off.)
Gift link to the Times article.
Small h was nice enough to provide a gift link right beneath my OP.
Thanks, tho!
I’m confused. shrinkwrap was the OP on this thread, and I replied to her.
Ah, I see there are two topics where this was posted.
