Reusing chicken marinade

Cooking Discussions Cooking, Cookbooks, Ingredients
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Hi, Phil:

I generally agree with both the “Better safe than sorry” and “Regulate for the lowest common demoninator” precepts. And you are certainly correct that food hygiene regulations and standards are at least partially responsible for reducing the total number of deaths and hospitalizations from food-borne illnesses. I would never advocate any wholesale repeal. And I don’t, as a practice, re-use marinades.

However, I think this particular issue is drastically over fear-mongered. Much the same happened in response to the 1993 Jack-In-The-Crack O157:H7 incident, and it was years before I could find a hamburger cooked rare even in a real restaurant. At one point I actually drafted a release form just to get a decent hamburger.

Moreover, some kinds of this fear-mongering are themselves dangerous. For instance, many people are so afraid of food poisoning they resort to multiple cutting board strategies, deploying squadrons of poly boards, when the best available science is that wood boards are hygenically superior. See, e.g., http://faculty.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/faculty/docliver/Research/cuttingboard.htm For another, prevalent use of antibacterial soaps probably causes more problems overall than it solves.

Finally, this kind of fetishistic fear can get in the way of trying really fine food. In Tahiti it is not uncommon to “age” fish used to make poisson cru by intentionally leaving it in the hot sun for hours before “cooking” it in lime juice and coconut milk. The bacteriologically squeamish will run away like their hair is on fire, but they are missing out. The same can be said of hanging fowl and dry ageing beef. It even turns out that salmon is better with a little age on it!

For me, I think a basic understanding that salt+sugar+acid+refrigeration makes for a lousy bacterial incubator is within the capacity of even a dunce cook.

Aloha,
Kaleo

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I very much agree. Food regulation enforcement is best done with common sense - often something that is lacking in the “nanny” states we seem to live in.

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In addition to “never underestimate people’s ability to screw up even the simplest instruction” rule, there was strong reaction to the Jack in the Box and other burger episodes because children were more likely to die of such infections and have no power to reduce risk on their own. Plus liability of course, in restos and homes with guests.

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Interesting question kale! I think it boils down to just science and math - salt can permeate meat pretty well so the amount of salt lost in a marinade is more or less going to coincide with the volume of meat present and the amount of time the marinade has to do its job. However salty the meat gets is going to be however much salt the marinade loses. When you have a large quantity of brine the percentage of salt lost will be pretty low. Think of it another way - if you take away the brine and salt the meat itself, when all of the surface salt is gone, that is the amount of salt that has made it into the meat, no?

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And, right on time:

Earlier this week at IHHS, I visited with Chef Phil Tessier about Meyer’s next great thing, the Hestan Cue (due to debut next month). It’s an integrated induction hotplate, Bluetooth frypan, and smartphone app that will allegedly turn all of us into… Phil Tessier.

I wonder… diddle the fecally-infected screen, dice the marinated chicken, diddle some more, use the toilet, check email (on the toilet), add cream, taste with index finger, wipe on pants, diddle for the finish…

And we’re wetting ourselves over marinade?

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I always remember in one of my early undergrad microbiology practicals we were sent out to sample lots of different places and see what cultures we could grow…and yes the toilets had fewer microbes than lots of other places.

I also seem to remember some studies that showed if you washed your hands frequently it was more effective that a flu jab and you also avoided a lot of colds.

And the answer to that depends. If your hand hygiene in the kitchen. If its good then it lowers risks. But if you are a little cavalier, like your example, about hand hygiene then incubating the bugs in a nice tasty culture media simply amplifies the potential problem.

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First, as I mentioned in the OP, this is a hypothetical discussion. It’s not something I practice, as I have a young child and therefore don’t take any risk. I use separate cutting boards. Regularly sanitize the boards with a 10% bleach solution. Usually I wear gloves when touching chicken. For large amounts, however, I use hands. But I actually wash my hands for real after touching poultry, not the half-hearted wash I see in cooking shows. In fact, after folks here informed me of botulism last year, I have completely stopped making pesto, achar, and garlic mayonnaise. (According to the literature I read, I couldn’t guarantee that these were safe.) Also, as a foodist, I feel like I have to follow these sorts of guidelines even if I don’t fully believe it in my heart. Like with any proper religion, I guess.

I’m not even going to look this up. I love brains. In my family, we only eat brains on the day of slaughter, or the next day, so I’m hoping that makes it better, but if not, don’t tell me please.

Would there be any way to get a rough estimate of how many of these would be due to the type of harmful bacteria found in meat marinades?

We often marinade large buckets of chicken at a time. When lots of guests are coming over on short notice, it’s easy to bake chicken, make some rice and chutney, and you’re done. If you’re marinating at this volume, you’ll have enough leftover to marinate a smaller batch. Like enough for your household, for example.

I’ve cooked chicken marinaded for this amount of time on a few occasions. I assure you it was still very edible. The chicken we eat isn’t as soft as average supermarket chicken, though. It’s a bit chewier meat. Not sure if that makes a difference.

I think the inverse can also happen. If the science isn’t clearly explained, I think many folks will just ignore the advice as the government being overly cautious. As it stands, the guidelines state not to reuse marinade and to marinate for a maximum of 2 days. However, there isn’t a clear explanation that illustrates why consecutively marinating two batches of chicken for 4 hour each in the same marinade, say, is much worse than marinating a single batch of chicken for 48 hours. Even with exponential growth based on two batches, shouldn’t the 48 hour marinade be able to “match” it?

Honestly, after reading the marinade and Botulism guidelines, I don’t understand how I ever escaped childhood alive, much less healthy. I can’t even remember the last time someone in my extended family had a food-related illness. But, as I mentioned before, most Pakistanis grossly overcook chicken. That could explain the low occurrences of marinade-related issues. In general, I think sentiments like this must be addressed and not laughed off like “well, in the old days people died from chicken pox.” I’m not talking about the old days, I’m talking about now. I know so many people who frequently violate these guidelines. How are they alive and healthy?

Also, I can’t be the only one who knows someone that undercooks chicken, like all the time. And no matter how much you try to convince them, with literature and thermometer readings, they still do it. What’s amazing to me is this person and their family never have food-related issues, just the regular colds and stuff!?

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With all due respect, it sounds like you’ve already made up your mind, according to the customs and practices of your culture.

It may be more useful to ask members of your community this question, since they are probably more familiar with the hygiene of handling buckets of chicken, etc.

Asking the question here, then arguing against every explanation offered, is somewhat useless.

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No, I haven’t made up my mind, it’s just my experiences are my reference points. I don’t see it as arguing, just trying to understand and dumping what’s currently on my mind. I fully realize I might not be bright enough to ever develop an understanding, that’s why I blindly follow the guidelines right now.

I appreciate all the effort everyone has put into this discussion. If you feel like I’m arguing the toss, by all means don’t feel any obligation to respond to me. No hurt feelings. (Feelings are for Chowhound.)

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I wouldn’t even consider it for myself . To each their own . I got grossed out even basting with it when grilling once . I am a tosser .

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And marinade is usually cheap. Why ruin the next meal with less than fresh herbs and spices?

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I never do any of that stuff without hand washing, yechh.

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Well, I humbly suggest you may have slipped up a time or two, and that not everyone who’s prepared your food is as scrupulous as you about cell phone hygiene…

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You may not want to call yourself a “Tosser” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_slang

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I completely agree. Even if it was safe, I probably wouldn’t do it because not only do you lose flavor and vibrancy, the first batch of chicken imparts this sort of extra raw tinge to the marinade.

Rest of the discussion aside, I think I just need to focus on understanding my specific concern – namely, why two consecutive short marinations are worse than one long marination. My goal is to be able to explain it to others and also make smart decisions if I ever want to relax restrictions myself. I will try to contact someone at the USDA or FDA to see if they can provide further literature that explains how the calculations are made. If I hear back, I will post here.

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I may just have a boring life; I’m not important enough nor interesting enough to require email correspondence in the bathroom.

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Just an example. Maybe you shook hands with someone who potty-emailed (and then touched your iPhone).

Don’t feel bad; doctors’ ties are even worse…

Aloha,
Kaleo

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Hey, when you’re a busy chef, the only time you get to sit down and check your phone is in the bathroom!

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You have to look at food systems holistically. Chicken in most industrialised countries is factory farmed on a mass scale. This increases the prevalence of microorganisms and then the processing and logistics that get he chicken from the farm to the table introduce more risk (handling, time etc).

In less industrialised countries Chicken is less intensively produced, supply chains are shorter. The live chicken has a lower level of microorganisms, and the supply chain doesn’t add much to it.

So safety advice in industrialised societies needs to be more prescriptive than less industrialised.

A good e example are the issues with washed and pre-packed salads leaves. If something goes wrong in a big industrial system is kills people. In a more rural economy with less processing, local food supply then these issues don’t occur (although other issues do like milk in China from unscrupulous suppliers who added toxic additives to boost the protein content).

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My guess is your family and you have lots of good practice that has been handed down through the generations. You probably don’t realise that its there because its second nature.

Botulism is an interesting one. My gut feeling is that it has come back as a problem as old cooking techniques are populalised without people understanding some basics. Botulism killed a lot of people when canned food was first developed and when home preserving of fruit and vegetables was the norm. Botulism cases may have increased in the recent past with the rise in home preserving and pickling, and making flavoured oils.

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