I know what you mean about trying them until you find the one that’s just right. I wonder if there is any place where you could try a really wide range. SLT is good but has fairly narrow offerings. It does, however, seem awfully entitled and wasteful to chop and slice potatoes, only to throw them away. Another problem with the first world.
I’m usually acutely aware of my self indulgence … which doesn’t mean that I don’t indulge (hangs head). Fewer chances these days - SLT deserted the local upscale mall several years ago. I think there’s a freestanding one left in Rockville or Bethesda. Crate and Barrel fled at the same time. And W-S. (and Tiffany’s and Louis Vuitton … are we sensing a pattern?)There’s still a very big, freestanding W-S quite near me; I can’t remember the last time I was in there. Probably pre-pandemic.
I used to weight heavily on steel type and still do, but have shifted my perspective a little more rounded. A great steel knife with a poor profile does not work. A great knife blade profile/shape with a poor steel also does not work.
I think my Glestain knife probably changed my mind the most. I don’t believe Glestain knife has the best steel, but it has a nice knife profile/grind which works nicely.
Depend on the definition of workhorse… if we mean a knife to be abused, then probably not. However, some people do spend good money on their main everyday knives. I think the typical examples are sushi chefs, they tend to spend good money on the knives that their main knives.
2 Likes
Well in case of spending big bucks on a knife - first one has to establish what big bucks is.
It will vary from person to person of course.
In my case I think big bucks on a knife is starting at about what I paid for my Mac Ultimate knives, so around the $350-400 mark.
I would never pay that much money for a knife if it was intended to be used for all the rough tasks in my kitchen, like killing a couple of lobsters, halving a water melon, cutting up a big head of white cabbage and stuff like that, but what I like about the Mac Ultimate is that it CAN be used for these rough jobs without risking a chip in the blade.
A daily workhorse knife for me is definitely worth the extra price if it gives me everything I’m looking for in a knife and on top of that I don’t have to baby it like I would with a Japanese artisan made thin bladed thin profiled laser cutter of a gyuto or kiritsuke knife.
I’m tired of specialty knives, which only can handle certain tasks in the kitchen. Been there, done that. It’s good fun yes, but I’m focussing more on prepping for my meals than using 4-5 different knives in one setting just because they’re fun to use. I already spend hours on making dinner several nights a week, I’m maturing as an individual and I now focus on using as few knives as I possible need per setting and that’s it.
This is what I like about my Mac Ultimate chefs knives. They are no nonsense knives, sort of like an upgraded Zwilling Pro or Wüsthof Classic ikon chefs knives. They just work and they work beautifully.
I don’t need to baby them in any way, even though they are $350-400 a piece.
To me that makes them worth the relatively high price for a kitchen knife with a blade made from a relatively middle of the road steel, but since the knife is built like a dream and for me perfectly balanced and with a blade height and blade profile which I find to be the best of any knife I’ve tried so far, the price is quite fair. To me. Your mileage may vary of course.
I can’t help think you kind of misunderstood what artisan knives can be.
There really isn’t any snobbery in artisan knives. In my opinion, there is no direct link between performance/quality and price.
You can pay steep overprice for a rather mediocre artisan knife. But you can also get really great handmade knives for half of what you paid for a Mac ultra.
As long you don’t go into single Bevel knifes. Japanese knives are not any less multi purpose then western. A gyuto is after all just a Japanese take on a french style chef knife.
Artisan knives are not more fragile or delicate then western knives in general. There are lasers that require a bit of thought. But there are also artisan knives you can chop wood with.
I would say you can find artisan knives for every taste and in a wide price range without problems.
I’ve only owned a total of 4 Japanese artisan knives, so my actual knowledge of artisan knives from Japan is in that way limited.
But I was in a couple of knife shops, which sells artisan Japanese knives beforehand when I did my research and also read a few thousands online threads on the topic Japanese artisan knives before pulling the trigger.
To this date I have yet to find a Japanese artisan gyuto that can handle cutting a cabbage head in half, halving a water melon or killing a couple of lobsters, but based on your comment they must exist out there.
I have nothing against specialised kitchen knives, I own many of them myself, but what’s important to me in my favourite chefs knife, at least for me to feel it’s my favourite knife in fact the ultimate knife for me, it has to be able to carry out a number of tasks in my kitchen, where I don’t have to worry about chipping issues.
So in general I have to say you’re incorrect when you say:
This is simply not true.
Western knives are made using softer less hard steel and typically have a thicker blade profile thus can withstand much more beating than a typical Japanese artisan knife can. Western knives hardly ever chip because they are made from less brittle steel and with a thicker profile. You are simply not knowing enough about knives if you seriously mean that Japanese artisan knives aren’t more fragile or delicate than western knives in general. I’m sorry, but you aren’t.
European knives are made from softer steel with a Rockwell hardness typically less than 60 Rockwell. I’ve seen very few western knives with Rockwell over 60, and very few western knives with a thin blade profile compared to the Japanese knives I’ve seen and held in my hand.
Sure you can get a deba and other knives with thick profiles, but the general artisan Japanese knife will be far more brittle than the general western kitchen knife.
Take a Wüsthof Classic chefs knife, a Sabatier chefs knife or a Zwilling Pro chefs knife.
Show me a Japanese artisan gyuto that can tolerate the same beating and workhorse endurance as these 3 knives.
My statement is indeed true. That fact that you attack my knowledge for being wrong shows that your “knife journey” is not over. And you can still learn a lot. Maybe the snobbery falls back on yourself ?
This is 2 examples.
If you really read thousand of threads… you should easily find more yourself.
1 Like
Well in that case I take it back and have to acknowledge your expertise in this area and my lack of the same.
Now that I’ve seen artisan Japanese knives with a strong profile, have you seen any of these with a western type handle and made from a stainless type steel ?
Regarding the snobbery, well I don’t know.
Fact of the matter is that all the threads I’ve read have been about the quite fragile laser knives and not about the stout durable gyuto knives that you link to.
What I mean by snobbery, you might not perceive or realise since you’re so dedicated to artisan Japanese knives.
Each and every time on the knife forums I’ve seen a person buying a knife brand from a more established brand he is immediately talked a bit down to by the members of the forum as though he doesn’t know better and the brand name knives are mostly seen as overpriced quite mediocre knives by the vast majority of members of the knife forums.
I’m also a member of several wet shaving forums and when someone actually have the courage to say he gets a pretty decent shave using a Gillette Fusion 5 razor he immediately gets talked down to in the same way as the guy with a brand name knife on the knife forums.
That’s snobbery right there for you.
And I’ve seen it hundred of times in effect.
I was probably led to believe no such thing as a strong durable artisan made gyuto existed because I never read a topic about the very durable gyuto knives out there. So thank you for leading me in that direction.
However I still stand by what I initially said.
What you say here is incorrect.
The vast majority of artisan Japanese knives I’ve seen for sale in the specialised knife shops all over Europe and in the specialised webshop are mostly made from a far more brittle harder steel than the typical western knife is.
That’s a fact.
A knife with a harder more brittle steel will normally not be as durable as a knife made from a softer less brittle steel. You know this is a fact. It’s the law of physics and chemistry.
I will be honest and say that stainless artisan knives with western handles are rare. There are tons of Japanese stainless knives with western handles. But those are mostly high quality factory made knives in the same category as your MAC.
But I would think this one brings a lot of what your looking for.
Tetogi is by the way a great shop and always worth a visit. The owner is a great guy to deal with.
1 Like
Those are not cheap, huh? I would definitely hope it would be the kind of all arounder where it’s the only knife I use all day.
1 Like
I realized as I wrote it that some of my terminology was overly broad and imprecise. To me a workhorse knife is a fait tout, does it all. It slices, chops, minces, dices, smashes garlic, and just about anything else. It is always out and working, and when the task at hand changes, it is quite often easier to use it than to clean and dry it, put it away, and grab another. If the cook is careful enough, it can be a somewhat delicate and brittle blade, but many cooks simply move too quickly to worry about that. The long single bevel Yanagiba of a sushi chef may be their essential knife, but I wonder if they use it for tasks other than the precision cutting of sushi or sashimi. There are some absolutely stunning over (and well over) $300 gyutos and chef’s knives out there, but it is inevitable that heavy use will show eventually. Sure, there are folk out there who have and delight in using those knives in their kitchens, and they doubtless perform brilliantly. I think that if they choose to spend that much and so use their knives, that is their choice and right. But a properly maintained Wusthof, Dexter, Tojiro, or Sabatier will certainly suffice. Knife skills and knife maintenance skills can be just as impactful as the knife chosen, usually more.
I would be fascinated to hear from working chefs and members of chefs’ teams, how many knife rolls they encounter with extremely expensive knives in them that regularly get put to work.
1 Like
Right now this is the knife I most frequently reach for. I use it for all sorts of vegetables mostly but it works great for smashing garlic, slicing meats, etc. Not artisanal, not expensive, stands up to the knife murderers I live with.
Purchased on Tim’s recommendation about 4 years ago.
1 Like
I personally rarely used knives that I considered “expensive” in professional kitchens for fear of theft or damage, but I was very hands on and chopping and cutting all day. Mostly proteins and vegetables with little fine detail work other than butchery. I chose the most comfortable, non-fatiguing- knuckle clearing-edge retaining knife capable of multi-tasking that I could find. I generally got through my day with 1 10" and 1 8" chef knife.
Many Chefs (Mostly execs) that I worked with kept expensive knives with them and locked them up-- but those Chefs were not actively working with product nearly as much as other cooks. They would use their ‘expensive’ knives when they worked and I saw plenty-- from Japanese knives to Kramer specials. Every shape and size. If you love your knife, you will use it. And for those people who chose to use expensive knives consistently, maybe the cost for them wasn’t as dear as for people for whom these are aspirational items. I don’t know if that makes sense, but it was always my gut.
1 Like
I was also going to recommend a Nakiri for people looking for a durable chopping knife that can maintain an edge.
1 Like
That looks terrific. I love the gently rounded heel/choil. Many Japanese knives have very sharp heel/choils, and for my particular approach they radically shortened the lives of my towels. If you are working in a restaurant kitchen, simply rolling a damp towel and wiping the blade across it is fine. It is never out of action long enough to need drying until prep and service are done or winding down, but in the gentler pace of home, they need to be rinsed, wiped, and dried. It is the drying that gets the towels nicked, at least for me. My brother in law needed knives, and I gave him my nakiri, gyuto, and petty. Now my knives all have bolsters and rounded heel/choils. I do, at times, miss the nakiri, but a very sharp utility or chef knife with a French profile does much the same.
1 Like
Nakiri and Chinese slicer (thin Chinese cleaver) are my favorite knife styles and what I like to spend most money on. There was an earlier discussion about how much is too much. That to me depends on the knife style. I am more willing to spend >$300 on a main knife which I can often use (like a chef’s knife, or nakiri, Chinese slicer) than even $150 for a paring knife. Don’t get me to talk about steak knives. Any steak knives more than $50 a piece just seems a lot to me.
3 Likes
May have already said somewhere in this thread: You want an edge to fail by rolling, not by chipping.
Knives with hard(er) steel are for soft product.
When you cook, your first task is to not kill the diners.
2 Likes
Of course there is snobbery. I say this having been a maker of artisan knives. Makers themselves aren’t generally snobbish, but the resellers and purchasers commonly are. Especially so on food and cutlery boards. Everyone wants to be special, but buying and owning a $$$ artisan/custom blade doesn’t make that buyer/owner special.
There’s a common thread through this stuff, that usually goes like: “Until you’ve used a Watsakashimoto blue paper sujihiki, hand-forged in local binchotan fires by the 8th generation master smith, you don’t know what you’re missing.” Then there’s the silly worship over steel hardness, and the brags that merchants sell as facts. Most users wouldn’t notice a RC difference of 5 points if it slapped them in the face, nor appreciate the downsides of extreme hardness.
The world’s major industrial cutlers mostly make good knives that are completely serviceable by all levels of cooks. And here’s a little secret: they tend to have quality control many artisan makers lack. One sure tell whether an artisan maker takes their heat treat seriously is if they send their unhardened blades to a specialist treater.
5 Likes
I can totally recognize the type of costumer you describe there.
But my experience is that there is just as much love for less expensive and “good value” knives as there are for the super expensive.
So maybe it would be more correct to say that there are not more snobbery when it comes to knives then most other hobbies.
Your statement about not being able to feel a difference on hardness. I just gotta disagree on that big time. Putting a 55-57 hrc German knife on a stone compared to a 62-63 hrc feels really different.
That being said. I agree that hardness is not the most Interesting or important in a knife.
Your point on quality control in factory made knives compared to artisan is a well known fact.
What style of knives did you make? Sounds cool 
1 Like
All industries have some sobbness to them. I also tell people that In n Out Burgers are far better than Five Guys too. I have a friend even swear by Wusthof is far better than Henckels.
I forgot who but part of the attraction of artisan knives is in fact their imperfection. That small imperfection with a human touch.
I can say that is definite a selling point for artisan clayware.
For tea drinkers, the price of the first flush/harvest and spring harvest are huge.
