Is fine dining finally growing up in Toronto?

Regional Dining Discussions Ontario
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[Have some free time to reflect on my recent meals. Hope everyone enjoy my first Post here]

A few years ago, when I first got to Toronto, it felt like fine dining here was trapped in time. Not in the sense that the cooking was classical or that there was a heavy use of cream or butter in the sauces, but in how the experience was delivered. Arrive at the restaurant, walk to your table, sit down, and stay butt-in-seat till the end. It was your lucky day if you got more than a list of ingredients in an explanation or a glimpse of the chef.

There was nothing wrong with this “traditional” fine dining experience — it had been perfected over the years and was what I was accustomed to. But it started to feel stale when countries in Asia and the Nordics began to move on and experiment with other dining formats or service delivery. Sushi counters in Japan have been around for some time, and an omakase meal is as much theater as dining. Before your eyes stands the chef at work — you see how the fish is sliced, the knifework used to create texture and release flavors, the condiments chosen, the pressing together of the nigiri reflecting the chef’s training. Joel Robuchon took inspiration from sushi counters and started applying counter seating to Western fine dining when he opened L’Atelier de Joel Robuchon in 2003. Twenty-two years later, L’Atelier has expanded from one to six branches around the world, and, concurrent with the rise in popularity of Japanese cuisine, counter dining can now be seen in many fine dining restaurants — including the likes of Alo and Quetzal.

For table dining, the Nordic countries have probably done the most to refine the experience. Noma lays out all of its ingredients on a table when you first approach the restaurant. FrantzĂ©n serves champagne and amuse-bouche in a separate lounge, with a detailed explanation of the ingredients displayed on a table. As you make your way to the table at Vyn, you pass through the kitchen and are introduced to the chefs in charge. At almost all starred restaurants, dishes are brought to the table by chefs — often the one preparing the dish. This, for me, is an evolution of the guest experience I long to see in Toronto, and finally, in the last two months, I have started to see some “growing up.”

My meal at The Pine in Creemore last month started the same way as before, as I took my seat at their chef’s table. Still the same minimally decorated dining room with white walls bathed in sunlight in a renovated gas station. But halfway through our meal, we were invited to step inside the kitchen, followed by a palate cleanser served on their kitchen table. Finally, someone had broken the mold! At the end of the meal, the petit fours were served in the back garden as the chef explained each of them in detail. On my fourth and most recent visit to Pearl Morissette, I finally met one of the two head chefs and saw both of them working through the dining room, greeting diners and explaining dishes. Maybe it was because both restaurants had recently been awarded one star by the Michelin Guide. Or maybe it’s because both are among the top restaurants in the country and might crack the soon-to-be-announced North America 50 Best Restaurants list. But I am happy to finally see some maturing of the fine dining scene — two restaurants already at the top of the Canadian dining scene pushing the envelope to get better and deliver an experience above and beyond the traditional fine dining experience.

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Nice post, @Daniel.

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Hi @Daniel great first post. Where were you before Toronto? You make a good point. I am not a fan of high-end and Michelin star dining but I am a fan of really great service. Some years ago we had a restaurant called southern accent. The owners took their crew to New Orleans every year to immerse themselves in the local cuisine so they could deliver the right food and service. At the table every server could talk about the food on offer, like a high end restaurant should, even though they were mid-range. I truly appreciate it and miss this since they closed. One highlight in my travels has been the restaurants where servers or chefs themselves visited tables. Memorable are a very cheap local prix-fixe restaurant in Marseille, and a high end restaurant in Porto, as well as a farm to table restaurant in Norwich, UK. Looking forward to hearing about your other Toronto experiences. I am famous for being underwhelmed and always looking for an opportunity to use words like fabulous and delicious. Welcome and post often!

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Hi Daniel, welcome.

There are some places in Toronto where there is more opportunity to interact with the chef(s). When you are at the chef’s counter at places like Ten, Affinity Fish, etc. there is lots of opportunity to ask questions and learn more about the dishes and their preparation. However, I can’t think of any place in Toronto that has adopted the approach of moving you from place to place, including sometimes into the kitchen itself. I’m interested to hear if there are any examples of this that others know about.

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Sadly, the closest to your scenario is not in Toronto but ‘Tanniere3’ in Quebec City
which was fun!
Still, at that establishment, the chefs are too busy to come out to chat with the patrons.

My experience at Eleven Madison Park in NYC, a few years back, did involve moving everyone from the table to first, outside the kitchen for some cocktail mixing and tasting and subsequently a kitchen walk around visit and chat with the chef.

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Everyone’s experience varies I guess 

Glad you had more interactive experiences at The Pine and RPM 

While I did enjoyed the food at both places, while I was at the counter at the Pine, the head chef had minimal engagement with us 

While I was at RPM, both the main chefs didn’t come to my table at all, service was a bit “cold” with minimal interaction 

Mind you, I was only at both places once 
 Perhaps need to repeat few times before they engage more. Meals were good though.

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I think some types of diners and some personalities attract more attention from the owners and staff. There’s nothing wrong with that, of course.

I don’t really like special attention so I don’t seek it out. I have known some Chowhounds who really made an effort to get to know the chef and pastry chef. Sometimes it was natural, sometimes it seemed a little forced. Of course, some chefs are extroverts and others are introverts.

I sometimes feel awkward when it’s clear my foodie friends have been buttering up the chef or owners, because they do that wherever they go, that’s their thing, and I’m just a bump on a log ordinary customer who is almost invisible. LOL. I am a regular at a few casual places, and I have enjoyed perks at some restaurants owned by former Chowhounds who I’ve become friends or friendly acquaintances with other the years. At the same time, I never want to put pressure on an owner or a chef. My family was in the restaurant business, years ago. I suspect that might have something to do with how I interact with owners and chefs.

I haven’t been going to what I would consider fine dining restaurants over the past 5 years, other than some take-out meals from Chiado.

I don’t have the patience for tasting menus anymore. I think my last fine dining tasting menu was at Don Alfonso with @estufarian and justpete in Dec 2018. I had a tasting menu at Skippa before it closed, on the patio, and that was more upscale casual, than fine dining.

I also was getting hives after some tasting menus, so that’s sort of a bummer after spending $250 on dinner. So-- I mostly stick to what I think would be considered upscale casual or lower. I’m not expecting exceptional service at the price point that I’m dining at, but I’m happy when I experience good or exceptional service.

I’m sometimes surprised by how casual service is at restaurants where the mains are $60ish. AloBar on York, for instance. The prices are pretty much the same as Chiado, but the service is the same as I would expect at a neighbourhood trattoria or gastropub.

I also revisit the places where I’m made to feel welcome.

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Taniùre³ is the one place I’ve had this kind of experience in Canada, but was mainly the moving from room to room. We never had contact with the cooking staff. The servers though were very informative and easy to interact with. When we’ve been to EMP, we’ve always stayed put. However, we’ve been to other places where we’ve moved around during the meal, but I can’t think of any of those where we also interacted with the chef. We’ve never specifically asked to meet the chef at a restaurant, but it is always nice if they choose to check in at your table.

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Agree, it’s nice when they check in. I was surprised when the pastry chef checked in at our table at a little Portuguese CafĂ© in Point Edward near Sarnia. Very polished considering we only spent $30 on our coffees and pastries.

I only went to Spago once. Wolfgang Puck made the rounds, and made a point to chat a bit with each table.

I remember Susur doing this at Susur, as well, in 2003.

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Thank You for the kind words! I moved here from Hong Kong and still spends quite a bit of time there and in Japan eating around. That restaurant sounds like a gem. I often don’t remember the details of the food but when the service is good, that is memorable

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I do like Ten and Affinity where the chefs do the explanation and one gets to ask questions. Aside from these two, I can only think of the Japanese Omakase places. Maybe it is because I am used to Japanese fine dining but I do enjoy being able to ask questions and it adds to the experience. As for moving from places to places, The Pine is the only one that I have visited that does this in Ontario. Even within Canada, Taniere in Quebec City is the only other one I am aware of.

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This added dimension of interactions and engagement are new to The Pine and RPM. I have been to both before and it wasn’t like that. Revisited both places these past two months and was excited to see the fine dining industry evolving. It would be interesting to hear from first time customers who have visited recently also

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My observations at both places are not directed at particular diners. At The Pine, everyone at the chef’s counter were invited inside the kitchen and also to the back garden. As for RPM, my back was to the dining room but my family confirmed that both chef came out and explained dishes to different tables. I don’t like special attention either but I do think it is nice for the chef to check in at tables at some point in the meal. Doesn’t have to be a full on discussion but just a brief meet and greet

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For those of us who are ’ ex-chowhounders ’ and still remember, Daniel was the prolific ‘HKTraveller’ !!

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I have found that “asking questions” is the most effective way of engaging the restaurant chefs, sommeliers etc.

But that doesn’t always work – particularly referencing Phoenikia’s ‘last fine dining’ experience at Don Alfonso!

At Taniere³ in Quebec City, we questioned the variety/source of the potato we were served – turned out to be a heritage variety chosen by the chef – who came out and talked about it – and does exit the kitchen every time we go (as regular readers may know, I have considered this my favourite place in Canada for each of the past 4 years - and will be visiting again next week, having made the reservation 5 days before Michelin announced their Quebec stars). We had a similar [potato] experience in Midland Ontario – clearly a ‘different variety’ (turned out to be Yellow Finn from a local farm in Lafontaine, Ontario) – but again it brought the chef out from the kitchen. Less inspiring was when we were in a 1 star in Paris and the chef came out to answer a question – we didn’t recognise Joel Robuchon himself until we saw his picture on a magazine as we were waiting for our return flight home.

I also recall a few years back having finger limes for the first time (knowingly – using the term loosely, as I certainly didn’t know what they were – only perceived the effect) at Alo restaurant in Toronto. As we departed, we were handled a small package of these fruits so we could try them again at home.

I think the ‘genesis’ of the chef visitations was essentially Schwa restaurant in Chicago, which instigated the ‘no servers’ philosophy. Whomever cooked the dish brought it to the table and described it and served it. My recollection is that the owner/chef Michael Carlson wanted the chefs to get the gratuities that previously went to the servers. Certainly, before that, there were some variations (IMO Wolfgang Puck was the most accomplished host I’d experienced – but he was no longer cooking at that point).

While I am pleased when a chef drops by my table, I have mixed feelings about the effect on the diners. It seems to suggest there are two ‘classes’ – those who are visited, and those who are bypassed! ‘Theoretically’ I can accept a chef visiting a single table in the dining room (there may be a VIP – however that is defined) – but if a chef visits more than one, then she should address every table in the room.

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I agree that questions often result in more engagement. We often ask for more details on interesting ingredients or the sourcing of some elements. Sometimes the server simply finds out for us, but we have had the chef or sous come out to provide further explanation. When we asked about the specific herb that is the namesake for the restaurant Quintonil in Mexico City, they brought out the herb for us to sample.

In terms of chefs serving the food, we’ve had that experience at several restaurants over the years. Many years ago we went to Gunshow in Atlanta. Each person made one specific dish and they would each emerge from the kitchen with multiple plates of their dish and offer it to each table, spending time to explain the dish. So over the course of the evening, we got to meet all the kitchen staff.

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Sigh! I really missed the GOOD OLD DAYS!!
May be a privilege for being a regular? I recall Chefs like David Lee and Victor Barry of the ‘old’ Splendido, Lorenzo Losetto of George, Patrick Kriss of ALO, Jean Vincent of Frilu and Daniel and Eric of Pearl Morissette almost always come out from the kitchen to exchange some pleasantries and chats
a lovely touch, really makes one feel at home!
Most memorable experience was when, years ago, Daniel Boulud actually came and sat down at my table and chatted, when he noticed the copy of Gault Millau on my table! Somehow, he also noticed I ordered his famous Crispy Potato Paupiette wrapped Black sea bass with Barolo sauce and apologise that due to sign of the times, the current version will not taste exactly the same as his ’ Le Cirque ’ version which used 3 bottles of Barolo for the sauce reduction!

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Thank you to the OP for bringing up this topic that makes for interesting discussion but I disagree with the concept that restaurants that do things traditionally by chefs that don’t come out to present the food, etc., is somehow stuck in time or needs to grow up compared with restaurants that do those things.

We generally judge a restaurant primarily by food quality and attentive service, not whether we are invited to see the kitchen or to see “all of its ingredients on a table when you first approach the restaurant.” These are perks that won’t make up for poor food quality or inattentive waiter.

Also the OP said: “At almost all starred restaurants, dishes are brought to the table by chefs — often the one preparing the dish.” However, we’ve very rarely seen this, starred restaurant or not (unless you’re sitting at the bar facing the open kitchen). It would not be practical, especially for a very busy restaurant, to have chefs cook and also bring food to your table.

As for open kitchens, it’s not something Toronto has finally grown up into, it’s been here for a while. Open kitchens have existed in Toronto, I recall as far back as (now defunct) Perigee at the Distillery around 20 years ago. Others may recall others at earlier times.

Finally, we’ve also been to restaurants where you end up going to a different room(s) and generally don’t prefer this. Generally and especially when we are out with friends or date night, we prefer to have the entire experience in one sitting socializing with our friends/date at the table which is most times the main point of dining out.

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I was thinking of expressing an unpopular view but Stevey seems to share similar thoughts about this so here’s my 2 cents. BTW Stevey, if you remember Perigee’s kitchen was separated by glass which I assume was to prevent the smell from wafting over (and succeeded). Open kitchens today are not exactly a plus
 a dinner at Fat Rabbit will leave your clothes smelling of charcoal.

I also found restaurants that moved diners to different areas added to the time spent. While that might be fine if you’re just targetting foodies, it limits your clientelle because you’re already pushing it with a 3+ hr tasting menu but now you need to wait for people to get to their places? The only place I found that did not increase the time commitment (so far) was Michael Smith’s Inn at Bay Fortune. They efficiently moved diners from one area to the other and everything was setup and ready to go. As soon as you’re seated, bam bam bam, all your courses are served. I’ve also observed that waiting till everyone gets to their places or finish their course doesn’t work because inevitably different groups take more time for whatever reason. Tasting menus at FK comes to mind.

While I like the chef to be responsive to my questions, I prefer if they don’t increase my dining time because of it. I don’t have that many friends that would do a 3+ hr tasting menu. Would I want Vaughan Mabee presenting all the courses himself? Sure. But that’s a very select group of friends I would invite to that meal. The others will be bored out of their skulls waiting for him to circle the tables.

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