Dave,
The firmware and software control on induction is far more complex than on and off. With a sensor in the pan and a sensor on the floor of the pan, one can modulate both up and down power and frequency. Not so âeasy peasyâ with gas controls that have no controlling sensors and need to interpolate energy flow both between sensors and increase or decrease of power.
Ray
Yikes. I just posted a four paragraph re-framing of my original question. And then I came to my senses.
Hi jammie,
Made me laugh.
Read your now nonexistant post. Induction gives an instant response, and can actually âtuneâ a simmer with magnetic pots and pans. Wonât work with copper or aluminum bases.
Ray
I wasnât going to say anything, but I also read the post right before jammie withdrew it, I think. And I kind of snorted at the mention of departed cookware techiesâŠnot in a mean way of course.
Ray,
You made too posts that are relevant - Iâm responding to both here.
There are two separate things going on here. Conflating them doesnât help. Letâs break them apart.
First is control - the ability to make more or less heat. A standard gas valve has an infinite number of gradations. If you remote control it (see below) youâll almost certainly use a stepper motor which does present some gradations, but no more than in the usual optical system on an induction controller.
Second is control feedback. This goes to your point about âtemperatureâ v. âenergy.â I agree that to my knowledge there isnât anything currently on the market. It isnât hard from an engineering point of view. Although the parameters are different (mostly start-up time and dwell time) the electronic controls on a Thermador gas valve can use the same pulse width modulation (PWM) approach that induction burners use. Ultimately it IS on and off and it IS easy peasy.
Itâs just a matter of the manufacturers of gas appliances to decide there is a market.
So lets get practical. An experienced cook will know where to set the gas to heat and hold a dish. It really isnât hard. Sure - you canât wander off to watch âHouse of Cardsâ (solution: iPad in the kitchen). Sure you need decent thermometers. I like the Taylor dials ($8) but you can get cool little Bluetooth ones that connect to apps on your phone for way under $50.
Induction is not better than gas. Portable induction brings safety and capacity issues with circuits and plugs. Induction is better than resistive.
I actually had an electric oven before. I bake a lot, and surprisingly my gas oven has been very good at maintaining temperature. And I like my gas broiler way more than the electric broiler I had before.
There were two reasons I wanted my range to have both gas and induction burners. I like my high BTU gas burner for wok cooking, but even the lowest BTU burner on my range can give me problems holding a simmer. Also, I admit, I wanted to boil water faster.
Dave: First is control - the ability to make more or less heat. A standard gas valve has an infinite number of gradations. If you remote control it (see below) youâll almost certainly use a stepper motor which does present some gradations, but no more than in the usual optical system on an induction controller.
Ray: Itâs more complex than that. The continuous valve is analog, and needs an analog to digital transformation for scaling to be possible. Then, the increases in temperature with changes in valve opening are non linear, so the function needs to have nonlinear scaled to make it as linear as possible. I donât think that could be done with gas in any straightforward way.
Dave: I agree that to my knowledge there isnât anything currently on the market. It isnât hard from an engineering point of view.
Ray: How does one record temperature at the bottom of the pan in any meaningful way with gas? Answer that one and youâve got a patent or twoâor three.
Now, explain how one would simultaneously connect the valve to readings from both the inside of the panâand the floor.
How would you interpolate?
Now tell me where one would place the temperature dials separate from energy on the stovetop.
Finally, explain how you would systematically change from temperature to temperature in a multi-step processâand remember the next time?
Dave:
An experienced cook will know where to set the gas to heat and hold a dish. It really isnât hard.
Ray:
An induction user can tune a simmer, remember it, and have it as a preset the next time around.
And itâs much safer when not carefully attended: it switches itself off before things get out of control.
Ugh, are you trying to explain. . Never mind.
I referred to copper lines that are made for induction. De Buyer makes a line. Also I think Matfer Bourgeat but I havenât googled in a while. I believe they have a steel disc in the bottom. Unsure. I would like someone out there who has used this stuff (on induction of course) to tell me how it stacks up compared to traditional copperware on gas.
I donât think youâre that dude so donât sweat it.
It may be beneficial to start this as a new topic.
Hi! I think this has been aired out in other (past) threads.
Oh I see. Thanks.
Ray,
Folks are going to gang up on us soon. grin
Dave: First is control
Ray: Itâs more complex than that.
Dave 2: The valve is indeed analog, even if controlled by a stepper motor. Nonlinearity is not important to a solution, anymore than linearity of fuel flow from a computer controlled fuel injector on an automobile is. The controller takes care of converting set point (heat output for a burner) to valve setting. It is definitely straightforward. All kinds of industrial controls do this every day. The technology is well established. Remember that heat from an induction is nonlinear with respect to average current (I^2*R). I believe itâs time domain from pulse wave modulation (PWM) controllers but regardless the relationship is nonlinear. Same.
Dave: I agree that to my knowledge there isnât anything currently on the market. It isnât hard from an engineering point of view.
Ray: How does one record temperature at the bottom of the pan in any meaningful way with gas? Answer that one and youâve got a patent or twoâor three.
Dave 2: The same way that you do with temperature control for induction: a probe.
Ray:
Dave 2: If you can get the temperatures for induction and feedback into a control loop you can do the same for gas. We do this today in industrial controls and rocket engines and jets.
I donât understand how you are using the word âinterpolate.â Interpolation is easy even with numerical analysis constraints. You fit a curve and apply the equation. Most (I think all) of what we are talking about is deterministic so you only have to establish the equation once and build it into all the controllers. Again, engine control units (ECU) on fuel injection auto engines are relevant.
Ray: Now tell me where one would place the temperature dials separate from energy on the stovetop.
Dave 2: I donât understand what you are asking. The user interface (dials) is separate from sensors which are separate from controllers.
Ray: Finally, explain how you would systematically change from temperature to temperature in a multi-step processâand remember the next time?
Dave 2: With exactly the same sort of controller that induction burners use. A program is a program.
Well, thereâs a combination of factors:
(1) A lot of people donât get to choose, e.g., renters, students, the aged.
(2) A lot of people canât or wonât buy new appliances (and the cookware) just to change.
(3) The US already has good gas infrastructure, a plentiful supply, and low prices.
(4) A lot of people see no reason to stop using what they have, i.e., they have few complaints.
(5) A lot of people love their non-magnetic high performance cookware.
(6) The government isnât pushing people to change/punishing if they donât (unlike Europe).
(7) Many people who have gas and have tried induction prefer gas.
(a) Gas hobs are generally far more even.
(b) Gas hobs are infinitely adjustable ; settings on induction are usually few and discrete.
(c) Gas hobs tend to heat the entire pan; induction heats a small donut pattern.
(d) Gas hobsâ flames are visible from a distance; induction requires reading a display.
(e) Gas hobs often allow faster downward response (uncladded Cu and Al pans work).
(8) Many people arenât wowed by the convenience features of induction. The only real performance advantage is precise setting repeatability (not control). Pretty much everything else is convenience (cooler kitchen, easy cleaning, etc.)
(9) Induction is increasingly associated with low power, cheap hotplates and vulnerable electronics.
(10) Induction appliances donât have an established longevity record, service/parts can be unavailable or spotty, and are more likely to be discontinued.
(11) The truth about inductionâs efficiency is coming outâitâs not as good as the zealots claim, and makes almost no difference in utility costs.
(12) While thereâs some futuristic cache surrounding induction, buyers with the ability to have anything they want, usually aspire to luxe gas ranges. Builders and developers know this and choose appliances accordingly.
Dave,
Makers of gas stovetops, threatened by recent induction challenges, are said to have recently gathered marketers together around a new slogan:
âLetâs beat induction.â
Not to be outdone, upstart induction promoters came up with an alternative slogan:
âLetâs pass gas.â
grin.
Ray
Power went out for half the day on Monday. I could still use the stove. Was very happy to have a gas range.
Yes, bmorecupcake,
itâs always wise to have gas backup. When I used to go camping, I never left my Coleman stove at home. If I ran out of fuel, I just waited for the campfire to burn down, and cooked potatoes in the coals with a spit on top. Best barbequed chicken I ever ate.
Nowdays itâs an electric hookup or generator, and a portable induction unit inside a motor home.
Ray
Hi, I think if you combined the two circumstances there, it could work, because cast iron conducts heat. So it could heat up another kind of metal pot sitting on top of it. Iâve tried that on a gas stove and it works to heat a couple of small pots on the griddle in the middle.
Something about the difference between single burner and multi burners is strange to me, in general. The more burners there are, the more it costs per burner, to where a unit with five burners looks to cost at least three times more for each burner than it would to buy five single burners. Or in other words, I could buy 15 or more single burners for the price of one unit with 5 burners (which would cost that much more to replace or repair also).
Well, I love, love, love my new induction stove. Changing the heat on the burners is so precise! After glass top electric, this is revolutionary! The only thing I would like is a âbridgeâ burner - I wish I could use two burners, or one very large one to brown in a roaster before it goes in the oven.
Yes, she is. 
