Cancelling "exotic"

I am late to the party but when I worked in London, nearly everyone I knew went to Greece for cheap holidays. This was before the euro conversion and the drachma was a very weak currency. You could eat and drink for a pittance. Never seemed exotic. Pretty common.

European holiday destinations, like Greece, may have been exotic before mass tourism took off in the late 1960s. Although possibly not countries like Malta and Cyprus where the UK had held colonial influence until independance during that decade. When you’re talking about Greek restaurants in the UK, you’re actually more likely to be talking about Greek Cypriot ones.

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The tourist trap food most tourists in Greece eat is pretty typical and common.

When in Greece and Italy, I try to seek out restaurants that don’t have their menus translated into English, German and French. Very difficult on islands like Rhodes which attract a lot of tourists from the North.

I did find a spot in Rhodes that was serving sea barnacles , urchin and local shrimp, but no spaghetti bolognese or French fries. The 1% of restaurants on Rhodes :joy:

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I find it interesting that “woke” started as a word used by the political left to describe themselves. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke Now the left gets offended that the right have “appropriated” the word for just what the left were using it for.

I wholeheartedly agree. Identity politics is racism. Circling back to food I take the same issue with “cultural appropriation.” You don’t have to be Italian to cook Italian food, or Chinese to cook Chinese food. Who gets offended that the restaurant kitchen that serves them food is dominated by Hispanic people regardless of the cuisine served? I’m only half Russian. Should I only make half a pot of borscht? Race like gender and religion should not make any difference.

Groups don’t matter. Not relevant. Not important.

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I also have issues with posters that nationalize foods. Cabbage rolls, falafel, langos. Food transcends borders.

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Agree. There are so many commonalities that should be binding us together.

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That is not what cultural appropriation means, nor what people object to when they raise it.

It’s a gross oversimplification that obfuscates the actual, valid issue.

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The important question is, desirability to whom? Who is the observer to whom it is desirable, and who or what is the “object” of said desirability?

Therein lies the issue that is to be had with the concept, and the word. It’s completely tied up in colonialism, conquest, and “other”-ing.

The underlying article is on point. This is neither a new issue nor a “tired” one, and this food writer is far from the first to have raised it.

David Chang has been campaigning about this for years - in his case, “smelly” Korean food and smells he was shamed for in childhood are suddenly normalized - without any acknowledgement of the decades of “other”-ing. MSG racism is another of his pet peeves.

Here’s a good article about Alison Roman “mainstreaming” some “exotic” ingredients and foods and refusing attribution of dishes that clearly be identified as belonging to specific cultures. That is the textbook definition of cultural appropriation.

Now in her case, she does this with all kinds of things where she pretends to have “just invented” something that has existed for ages - including in the western food cannon (anchovy croutons, smoked paprika chicken, the list is endless - probably all her recipes - if I was being particularly ungenerous - are unattributed replays). However it’s most egregious when she takes previously “exotic” ingredients and incorporates them as “everyday” to “normalize” them for her young, hip (mostly not-“other”) audience.

Even at the gentler end of the spectrum, we’ve had Smitten Kitchen rename an Indian chef’s family recipe for “chicken curry” as “tikka masala” because she thought (being woke, there I’ll use it) that “curry” doesn’t really exist . So even though the the recipe creator, Chetna Makan, is Indian, Deb Perelman felt entitled to rename the recipe for her audience. She also made dolsot bibimbap and renamed it crispy rice. To her credit, she later (when readers called her out) added comments to both with some acknowledgement (only sort-of, but still).

You can’t “cancel” legitimate issues just because you fall into the observer and not the object category. The issue is on the part of those being “exoticized.”

ETA: if you look at the link to the underlying WaPo article, it reads ”exotic-food-xenophobia-racism”

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I’m conscious that whatever I make will be a version created through my experiences. 47 year old with Second Gen Greek, Second Gen Austrian-Hungarian, Bohemian (as in Bohemia), Lottringerin (as in Lorraine), Prairie, Northern Californian, White, Gen X, foodie family, Chinese Food every Sunday night upbringing.

Right now, in Toronto, most short order cooks at Greek and Italian restaurants are Sri Lankan immigrants. Some are taking over Greek greasy spoons where they have worked , selling bacon and eggs, leaving the chicken souvlaki and Greek salad on the menus, leaving the framed photos on the walls, often removing lamb (probably because it’s expensive and doesn’t sell that well to a largely non Greek clientele).

Pretty close, often pretty good, maybe delicious, but a certain je ne sais quoi is missing from mostGreek food made by non -Greeks, or Indian food made by non-Indians. I’d even go so far as to say most Greek restaurant food made by Cypriots, Cretans, Thessalonian, Black Sea Greeks and Greek Islander immigrants is tastier than Greek food made by Peloponnesian immigrants, but that’s my bias showing.

Exotic doesn’t even mean desirable. It can be used in a way to denigrate something that isn’t familiar. When someone says that a certain food or cuisine is “too exotic” for their taste. Its clearly not desirable.

At the same time, things that were once exotic can cross over into the mainstream, but in odd ways divorced from its origins. Your reference to Chang brings to mind one example. Kimchi is one thing that many people will associate with Korean food. I love the stuff, the stinkier the better. I remember once going through a Stop & Shop store in the middle of Connecticut. In the fridgerated section there was this bottle of kimchi. I picked it up and looked at the ingredients. Green cabbage was first. Not napa. There was red pepper and garlic but what I discerned was a lot of sugar and other unfamiliar ingredients for kimchi. Noticed that it was made in Vermont, the land of artisanal kimchi. I put the bottle back. I’m guessing there are some people who will buy it as they have heard of kimchi. Will they like it or not, I’ve no idea. But whatever their impression, what they will be sampling isn’t close to the original exotic item and their opinions of what they think kimchi is will be misinformed.

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Yes, but if you read the header to this post, that’s what I was referencing.

And that is actually what is in the underlying WaPo article. If you read the actual article link it’s: ”exotic-food-xenophobia-racism” - not the positive spin of the OP.

Re the kimchi - better we don’t get side-tracked into an authenticity discussion here. I’m all for broadening palates in whatever way works. Maybe that “Vermont kimchi” opened someone’s palate to the possibilities, and they’ll eventually seek out something else.

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Killjoy. What better way to get things really rolling? - :rofl:

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I don’t know about that. I think we think what we think and our palates confirm whatever we want them to. Most kitchen staff at indian restaurants in nyc are Hispanic. Food still tastes right and good to me (I’m indian).

But let’s not get sidetracked to authenticity - it is unrelated to exoticism.

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Just wanted to clarify my original point about Greek food not being typically regarded as “exotic,” to all those chiming in to showcase their Greek food knowledge. What I meant was (and I’m willing to bet everyone who mentioned offal and mastic already knows this) was that if you ask typical American diners whether they regard Greek food as “familiar” or “exotic,” they will say " familiar," having had Greek salad and baklava and gyros. Are they experts on Greek cuisine? No. But neither would they put it in the same category as Fujian or Burmese.

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I love Fujian food. All that exotic stuff they like serve like at luaus and the bottled water that comes in those pretty square bottles.

sorry, my feeble attempt at some humor

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For the record, I have little Greek food knowledge beyond how to pronounce gyro when ordering in DC in the 80’s. My knowledge about mastic is more likely Turkish and about how people in Turkey seem to feel about folks being more likely to accept things as Greek rather than Turkish.

I’ve personally never used the word “exotic.” In my youth, I heard it too many times to count in descriptions of Asian culture/food and it made me uncomfortable. As an adult, I’d read that word in travel magazines and it made me cringe (“Exotic to whom? Not to me”).

The most egregious example of an “exotic” food item that I’ve recently seen is the use of a derogatory term to describe makrut lime leaves (I won’t write the word but it’s similar to the “N” word in the US and, thus, equally painful for me to write). I know I’ve pontificated about this on a different HO thread, but I bring it up again. Years ago, I wasn’t aware of the painful history behind the term and once I learned about it, I immediately stopped using it. I think some folks may continue using it, possibly due to the “exotic” nature of the said food item thus, keeping the painful history at arm’s length, or out of habit. My guiding principle is that if it’s painful for someone, then stop using it. This term may have been acceptable 100 years ago, but it sure as hell ain’t now at chez digga because I remember feeling uncomfortable as a kid when an “innocuous” word like “exotic” was used to indirectly describe me.

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Phew, that’s a relief. I don’t do “authentic” but I do do “traditional and tasty”.

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I recall the earlier discussion. And havent changed my opinion in the intervening period. Sorry if that will still offend you.

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We agree to disagree. And that’s ok.

Edited to add: but just imagine substituting “makrut” with the offending N Word even if the intent was not a malicious one. I imagine that might get some people’s attention, and not in a good way.

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