We are lucky to have not one, not two, but several Sichuan places in our podunk town, all of which serve “authentic” Sichuan food. Some are better than others, or do specific dishes better than others.
I know where to get what I want, bc like everyone, I have my personal preferences. One place does a better (lighter, crisper) job at chongqing chicken, the other a better job (more ma la) with the mapo tofu.
Just like you, I find it hard to pass out blanket recommendations. I always specify what to eat at what location.
So you live in a podunk town… I am fond of saying that Chowhound changed my view of real estate. What was previously a down-trodden neighborhood is now Ground Zero for all kinds of delicious eats.
“If you lived here, you’d be home by now.”
Unfortunately, I wouldn’t go that far, but this (college) town has come a long way culinarily in the last two decades. Most offerings are decidedly student-oriented - bad pizza, burgers, wings, chains, but thanks to a very large Chinese community, at least we got that covered.
It’s why I rarely seek out Sichuan when I travel to bigger cities.
What makes a Sichuan restaurant authentic? Is it that it’s located there? The chefs come from there? The patrons are from there or have visited? That the food is made with recipes that originated there? What happens when a restaurant that is staffed with chefs from the motherland cooking from recipes that originated in their home country decide to create a new dish using ingredients from where they now are? Is it no longer authentic? I think of Penguin Chang Kuei and the original General Tso chicken which is not what you will get in your standard Chinese restaurant in the US.
For arguments sake, what is the authentic hamburger? One of the origin myths is that is was created in New Haven at Louis’ Lunch. It’s a patty between two thick slices of bread. Not a bun and no cheese. There are so many variations of burgers now that you probably can’t count them. Are they not authentic because they don’t hew to the original? How far removed before it’s no longer a burger? Are chicken and salmon burgers so inauthentic that they have corrupted the concept of burgerness? What does authenticity mean for a burger which may be one of the most quintessential American food items? Who decides?
If I moved to China and opened a burger place and seasoned a burger with sichuan peppers and topped it with some pickled vegetables other than a pickled cucumber would it be inauthentic? My guess is that there’s a version of that being served somewhere in the US. Is that burger not authentic?
That’s why my initial reply stands: the concept of authenticity with regard to food (and perhaps other things, but this is a food board after all) is meaningless… and apparently not just to me.
If the youtube channel Chinese Cooking Demystified has taught me anything, it’s that if you’re looking for ‘real’ X (X=whatever food item), your choices are endless, even for something like mapo tofu. It can be prepared a zillion different ways, with variations on variations. Which one is ‘authentic’?
As a Chicago native, I can tell you that there’s a lot of argument about what constitutes a ‘Chicago’ style pizza (we will not be rehashing the “deep dish isn’t pizza” point). For instance, a number of folks will excitedly point out (and I have been guilty of this in the past myself) that there is NO corn meal in deep dish pizza crust. The distinctive taste comes from using corn oil (as opposed to all olive oil) And it’s true that none of the big Chicago players use it. Malnatti’s, Gino’s, Pequod’s, Giordano’s. But there’s at least ONE recipe book dating from the mid 60’s that has it. It’s POSSIBLE that early versions used corn meal and then stopped. Some places use corn meal to dust their peels or line the inside of the pizza pan. Others use semolina. On Solano Ave. in Albany, CA there are two pizzarias specializing in deep dish Chicago-style pies. Zachary’s uses all flour in their crust. It’s very very good. Little Star uses some corn meal. It’s also very very good. Former President Obama even went so far as to call Little Star his favorite deep dish pizza, EVEN compared to ones in Chicago.
Is Little Star less authentic than Zachary’s? Are either less authentic than Lou Malnatti’s? And what about Pequod’s? A local chain founded by Burt Katz, originally from Michigan. He made a distinct style of deep dish that was half-way between Chicago style and a Detroit pie with its crispy cheese edges. And I can tell you that Pequod’s is the one I’m most likely to get on my trips home. Is it inauthentic?
You bring up some interesting questions, certainly, just as linguafood has done before, which are all valid.
Again, I would refer you to the dictionary definition of authentic.
In the 17th Century, Calderon de la Barca wrote The Mayor of Zalamea, a play in which characters in the first scene argue that love does not exist. They all make valid points. In the end, it is up to you to figure out if love does really exist. My guess is that, if you wind up in tears at the end of the play, then you will most likely think it does.
Another example from literature is the question of dignity. Does it really exist? In Man’s Fate by Malreaux, the character of the interrogator posits that it does not. His captive, a rebel during the Chinese Revolution of 1929, responds that his people have been made to feel shame, the opposite.
I have already laid out, via the dictionary definition and many examples of where a particular dish, like bouillabaisse, can be considered authentic. Spoiler alert: it is not just any seafood stew, unlike most versions you find in the US.
You seem to be stuck on the idea that originality is the same as authenticity. Or that things can’t evolve and be authentic. Or that only one cook’s dish could possibly qualify.
If it fits the dictionary definition, then that’s good enough for me.
When you ask the question “which one is authentic ?,” then I guess you haven’t been reading my previous posts.
Pequod’s is phenomenal. I’ve left meetings early and gone to Pequods before heading to the airport to get the flight back to NYC. Also take one to go.
BTW, Burt Katz left Pequod’s long ago and started up Burt’s Place, which still exists. He passed away in 2016.
I grew up in Morton Grove, where the original Pequod’s is and where Burt’s Place is located (right next to Pequod’s!) and knew Burt. He and my father were friends that bonded over a love of antique audio gear. Pequod’s was where I took my first ‘date’, at 8 years old. We rode our bikes to the restaurant (followed both sets of parents in a car). I paid with my saved up allowance, and then we biked ALL the way down Dempster to Baskin Robins for dessert.
I went to Burt’s Place while he was still there. His widow sold the place to some folks that have kept his recipes and kept the basic feel, but the couple of times I tried it under the new owners, it wasn’t quite right. I now prefer Pequod’s over Burt’s.
But Burt’s Place is still authentic Chicago pizza. It’s just not as good a one as it used to be.
The history of food is one of transportation and evolution. Is there anything truly “authentic”?
All of the vegetables we eat today did not exist centuries ago, but have evolved through artificial selection.
People find ways to change things. People travel and bring with them new ideas and new ways of making old food, maybe because of different ingredients available or being creative or catering to new patrons.
Spaghetti and Meatballs is not Italian-- it’s Italian American. General Tso’s Chicken is not Chinese-- it’s Chinese American. Both were created to cater to a specific demographic in a new and strange world. Does that make them inauthentic? Authentic cuisines usually have a history and a place to trace them to, and these two examples certainly do as well. In fact, why certain cultures have vastly changed their cuisine upon arriving in America or anywhere else in the world is history and fascinating in itself.
I wouldn’t order spaghetti and meatballs in an Italian restaurant because there would be so many more interesting items (at least to me) on the menu. But while according to this post, such a meal would be “inauthentic” Italian, it has become Italian through association and I don’t really see the big deal about it (speaking as a historian).
I have a History of Food lecture at the local community college. Part of the class is tracing popular ethnic foods and explaining their evolution. While I have fun informing people that, for example, Beef and Broccoli and Fortune Cookies are Americanized creations and not “authentic” Chinese, I do so in an educating and fun way-- not being mean spirited to make people think they are stupid and that they cannot enjoy their Sweet and Sour Chicken because is not Chinese.
You are describing the evolution of Springfield Cashew Chicken
almost exactly.
Developed by an immigrant to a strange land 60 years ago looking for something to appeal to the locals.
And now it is copied and modified, available at many different places as time marches on.
Is 60 years long enough to qualify as authentic?
Sorry to hear its not as good. This is what happens as places change hands. Time (and change) is not always positive.
Which is why some people want to preserve things for as long as they can.
well, NOW I want to try that cashew chicken!!
In answer to your initial question, yes food can be deemed authentic. This is mostly unofficial, but in some cases can evolve into something official, like the Bouillabaisse Charter.
And why would evolution make something inauthentic? Authentic is not defined by period of time.
Again, there is an actual definition of the word.
And what is up with putting quotation marks around words? Or should I say “quotation” marks?
Mod note: Let’s just agree to disagree. The discussion isn’t really going anywhere…
Your explanation makes a lot of sense.
A friend of mine runs a small Mexican takeout place. Some of what he serves is probably considered Tex-Mex or Americanized dishes.
But he does have a section on the menu with dishes from his village, prepared the way his family and neighbors did (and still do). Those dishes are certainly authentic.
Was that the 5 minute argument, or the full half-hour?
