The first kitchen knife Asian influence on me was the nakiri knife I was given when I was in Japan.
Ray
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Totally unremarkable that Onion’s profiles resemble what many think of as Asian.
I think I know the answer, but it would be fun to ask him if if his “style” came from desire to set himself apart, i.e., branding, or that he decided his aim was to fuse Asian and Western cultures in cutlery.
Can you and @drrayeye tell me how Ken Onion knives are more Asian influenced than other people? When I think of Ken Onion knives, I think of these:
And their most unique features are
- the handle are slightly off-axis (higher) than the knife spine.
- the knife spine is curved, and not straight
- the cutting edge profile is more straight than other chef’s knife
Feature 1 and 2 do not seem Asian to me. Chinese vegetable knife (often call Chinese cleaver) or Japanese Nakiri does not have these features.
Is it because Ken Onion knives have straighter edge profile? Is this what we mean by his knife design inspire the West to adapt Asian knife features? Or he starts make kitchen knives tempered to high steel hardness?
As from the Japanese side, Japanese knives have long been influenced by European and American knife culture. Japanese traditional knives are Nakiri, Usuba, Yanagi, Deba… . Many of the modern Japanese knives like Gyuto, Santoku, petty knives are already Western-influenced. In fact, they are called 洋包丁 (Western knives) from Japanese perspectives. So I don’t know what Ken did to influence further cultural fusion from the West to the East.
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I can’t, Chem. They Don’t look particularly Asian to me, either. This whole fusion concept is amost completely imaginary–for a True Believer, “fusion” can be seen everywhere.
You are correct that Japanese cutlery from the early Meiji on was heavily influenced by Western cutlery. But if one’s only view of the Rorschach blot is that everything is culturally fusing…
I think Ken has made his major contribution in the development of the Kaji line for Shun:
Ray
I see sandwich shop influence. I mean that in a complimentary way. The efficiency of the shape reminds me of a serrated sandwich knife with an elevated handle. Of course it is not as pronounced. It adds extra knuckle clearance while preserving a clean, strong stroke.
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Totally. Two of my three $$ bread knives have basically no knuckle clearance, and so having some is very handy. Of course, makers could put a bread edge on a “chef” profile, but that would waste steel.
Poilane makes a nod to clearance by turning the end knob upside down, but that gains precious little. The Dexter design is clearly superior.
Hi. Are you thinking Ken Onion bought Asian knife features to Western customers or Ken bought Western knife features to Asian customers or neither.
As you know Shun is a knife brand under the Japanese company KAI, but Shun is a brand marketed for Western customers, so most Japanese and other Asian countries customers do not see Shun knives. This means Ken’s influence on Shun only affects Western customers. Are you thinking that Ken made Shun knives more western for Western customers?
I do remember liking the Kenji look. Thanks
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You persist as long as you want, Chem, but there really isn’t any reason or reasoning behind this.
Shun has existed as a brand in the West only since 2005. Its marketing suggests a lineage of 800 years, but the best that can be said is that the modern founder had a relative that made razors in the early 20th Century.
Chem,
I’ve never met Ken, but I know enough about his bio to recognize his multicultural sensitivity–which I appreciate. I can’t really comment on your analyses of Japanese and Chinese knives in general and Ken’s approach–only how his knives have influenced me.
I can tell you about my kitchen knife related experiences, beginning in Japan more than 30 years ago. They’ve led me to purchase two Shun Kaji, and two Ken Onion premium kitchen knives for my SOCAL home kitchen.
It may take awhile for me to put this all together.
Ray
@kaleokahu Just curious. That’s all.
@drrayeye I agree that Ken has learn knife making techniques from different backgrounds. Maybe I overread your statement. You probably meant that Ken is/was inspired by Western and Asian knife making techniques. Thanks.
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Hi Chem,
I was gifted my first Japanese knife more than 30 years ago, a Seki Magoroku nakiri–a Shun before Shun existed in the United States. It has a wa handle, full tang, no bolster, and a tapered, thin, mono steel blade–sharp, with good edge retention–more than adequate for all my prepping needs.
Seven years ago, when my Japanese collaborator and I both decided to develop a home cooking hobby, I purchased the American fusion Shun Classic chef’s knife for him (so he could “Americanize”), and a Wusthof Classic Ikon chef’s knife for me to re-establish my European roots. The “righty” Shun classic didn’t work for a lefty like me, but I did buy an ultimate utility Shun classic for my son.
I almost immediately began to see the need for a knife that would fill a gap between the Wusthof and my Japanese nakiri (with a universal handle) and found the Shun Kaji santoku hollow ground. Cut some carrots with one, and looked for a way to afford it. Found one on auction, and also was able to get a petty knife Kaji on sale as well.
Reading about Kaji led me to learn about Ken Onion, and I subsequently purchased a 9" slicer and a small detail knife with his ergonomic handles and special surface treatment.
It seems to me that Ken was able to fuse the Japanese profiles I experienced in a way that I could use in my kitchen:
Ray
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My nakiri is on the left, the other three are “damascus,” but only #3 is true damascus.
What is damascus?
practical interpretation for kitchen knife enthusiasts:
There are manufactured Japanese and Chinese knives that have three layers: a central core steel, covered with a protective shell on both sides. If that protective shell is one variety of steel, the knife will not appear to be much different from unimetal European knives.
However
That protective shell can itself be made up of layers–sometimes many layers–of steel with contrasting features. When that protective shell is treated with acid, a ghost image appears.
“damascus effect.”
If a knife is made entirely by contrasting steels–with no core–it’s a true damascus knife–like the two I posted at the start of this thread.
Ray
As I study the two knives on top more closely, the cutting edge admittedly curves less than a current Henckels or Wusthof, it seems to have more curve than most gyutos. It looks closer to a French cutting edge to me. They look like they are from a very nice Klingon kitchen.
American fusion and klingon kitchen are not so far apart.
They certainly have less curvature than a typical German chef’s knife profile – more like a French chef’s knife or a Japanese gyuto. (Now, granted that Japanese gyuto itself is a Westernized-Japanese knife already). However, the overall blade width (knife spine to knife edge) is pretty wide compared to French or Japanese.
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Chem,
Good analysis–his designs were different. IMO Ken’s designs are neither European nor Japanese–He’s American, just like me. I grew up where a man’s knives were pocket knives and hunting knives, and we used them to prepare fish and animals before we brought them into the kitchen.
That tradition was the spirit that Kai was looking for, and that spirit was what helped Ken design a fusion knife for them.
Ray, I’m mostly ignoring you, but you’re completely making stuff up again.
PROGRESS
I’m meeting with Dr. F for a translation of Xinzuo 180 mm Chinese knife documentation–I will continue to explore.
Meanwhile, Dr. H and I will do some direct comparing with meat and vegetables and report back.
There is no doubt that the Xinzuo 180 mm gyuto deba knife is not only beautiful, but a very interesting knife . . .
