Saison for special occasion?

Thanks for the detailed reviews and comparisons!

I keep swinging back and forth with Saison, but based on your glowing review and Brian’s high praise, I’m eager to pay a visit. Like you, I’ve often gotten the sense that much of the criticism seems to ring in context of the cost, which may or may not be fair. I tend to accept that damage well in advance and then divorce any thoughts from the dining experience, because no restaurant charging as much for a meal (worthy or not) could reasonably be considered a good value. I get why people take cost into consideration and I’m not criticizing anyone for it, but I can only speak for myself and say that value is certainly not why I’d chose Saison, Crenn, or any other ambitious multi-course degustation menu. It’s expensive whether the food is good or not. An evaluation purely on the elemental components of the artistry and accomplishments of the kitchen, in terms of quality and creativity of ingredients, preparation and plating, dexterity of execution; the timing, pacing and level of attentiveness of waitstaff and front of house, and so on, are what matters to me.

Anyhow, I’m looking forward to trying Saison and I think we’ll go for the full dinner experience afterall, probably sometime in November.

Our of curiosity, when was your last visit to Crenn? I’ve noticed that most reviews seemed to be a lot harsher in the first 3 years of operation, and have kind of mellowed out in recent years. ie. less misfires- criticism seems fairly consistent though and it’s the same across the board, even from those who hold favorable views of Crenn’s “poetic culinaria”. Have you been since 2014?

I haven’t been to Crenn since 2013! I liked aspects of it but I know people who are all across the board - some who like it, who thought it was OK, and some on the other side of the spectrum, so I haven’t been back since. I know they’ve since gotten a new chef de cuisine (Rodney Wages from Saison), so I’m sure things are probably a bit different now. Almost all of the top restaurants have undergone some chef changes at some level. The key to me is the ethos/approach to food (what are they aiming for?) and technical skill.

With that said, the menus at Saison and Crenn have distinct identities, in my opinion. Take, for example, some of their duck dishes:

Crenn: duck-liver pate and duck fat “eggs” resting in a “bird’s nest” made of dehydrated and fried corn “silk,” w/ chocolate and porcini “branches.” It’s like a diorama meant to represent “birth” as it looks like duck eggs sitting in a bird’s nest…the corn also being something that ducks eat. The “full circle” narrative is prevalent at Crenn. Other dishes are much more “molecular” with powder, overflowing gasses, dessert presented on a wooden log, etc. It’s been a while, so that’s the only savory dish I remember.

Saison: duck in 3 parts - 1) liver “toffee” with caramelized white chocolate, sourdough bread “lace,” and dunkel beer foam, 2) spiced aged roasted duck breast with toasted cherry blossom leaf and plum-shiso “steak sauce,” sometimes served with a ragu of the innards wrapped in some kind of brassica (e.g. raddichio or treviso), 3) duck bone bouillon with mitsuba leaf.

The key to the dish at Crenn was the wit of presenting duck in a “natural” setting speaking to “birth” near the end of the meal, with dessert flavors but as if in reverse (the meal started with sorbet and sashimi after a poppable Kir Breton). The duck not present in meat form, but rather as “eggs” ready to hatch (vis a vis the “nest” of its diet), though no duck egg was used. So she used fatty duck liver to convey the duck essence, then mixed it with the sweetness of corn, vanilla, chocolate, and the earthiness of porcini - all complementary flavors, if a bit rich and indulgent. It ate like a pre-dessert - a smart combination to usher in sweet things to come and without the meat textures.

The key to the dish at Saison was the brilliant combination of complementary flavors and the masterful use of texture. You had the funky duck liver mingled with the yeasty and chocolaty notes conveyed by chocolate, bread, and beer. Wonderful layers of textures, too, with surprising levity and effervescence despite the richness of duck liver. Then the perfectly roasted duck breast, aged for deep flavor, with a super juicy crisped skin - paired with delicate toasted cherry leaf and the side of ume and shiso that is at once bright (hints of cherry and plum with duck) and earthy, and man it’s a damn good take on steak sauce, working well in conjunction with the bitterness of the raddichio or wilted treviso leaf to cut the funk of the innards. Then, the deep and pure broth with the perfect clean hit of mitsuba to reset the palette just before smoked milk ice cream with caramel and cocoa nibs. Gentle hints of smoke bind all the flavors together in a seamless progression.

I’ve seen some people on Chowhound scoff at the use of the boullion or the pickle dish (in horseradish ice) at Saison - would they scoff at an owan or tsukemono course in a kaiseki restaurant? I personally don’t want just a procession of expensive, rich crowd pleasers like wagyu and uni back-to-back, I want balance. I’ve also heard the criticism that Saison is too simplistic. The uni on toast for example. Well, it’s not so much about the uni, it’s about the texture difference of the soy-soaked bottom and how the homemade toasted grains “soy” sauce works with the brininess of the uni - the Hokkaido uni matches better than the Fort Bragg version, because “bafun” uni can be earthier. It’s deceptively simplistic but there’s a ton of depth there. I don’t care if they serve asparagus, as long as the asparagus is good (and the asparagus I’ve had, or at times Chinese broccoli, was incredible…just like the humble “brassicas”).

Of course these dishes change with the seasons - I’ve had the duck probably 4+ different ways now at Saison, so this is just a snapshot at a particular time. But maybe you can get a sense of their different approaches. I don’t mean to be reductive - there’s many facets to their respective cuisines. The above is just a snapshot and they’re not necessarily indicative of the whole menu, but just a window into some of their dishes which embody their approach. At Saison, you might have a complex duck course in 3 parts like described above, or you might have something much more pared down - perhaps smoked caviar (the good stuff) over kelp gelee with a japanese charcoal-roasted Parker roll. I’ve been to Saison many times, but Crenn I’ve only had some limited experiences early on, so I’m not familiar with her oeuvre, but it did seem closest to perhaps e by Jose Andres in Vegas (minus the obvious Spanish inflection). Maybe The Fat Duck (I haven’t been)? At Crenn, lots of trompe l’oiel and Modernist wit. At Saison, lots of unexpected flavor pairings with a brilliant progression. Naturally, because I’ve been to Saison much more than Crenn, I have a preference for Saison, but that’s my own personal take, and yours may vary.

Anyway, all of SF/Bay Area high-end places are different, and I have my thoughts on all of their respective merits. I hope you and your wife enjoy wherever you guys decide to celebrate!

PS - and respectfully disagree with Akiko’s and Omakase.

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Brian, thanks for the thoughtful post. I don’t disagree with you in the least – but did want to add a couple of my own random thoughts/reactions, if you don’t mind . . .

LOVE Lazy Bear! Yes, you have to devote a large chuck of time to the meal (there are only two seatings a night; 6pm and 8:30 – that WOULD be “the full investment of the night” at 2.5 hours), but each of the 4-5 meals my wife and I have had there has been delicious, creative, and fun . . . fun in a way that places like Atelier Crenn or Quince are not.

Never had a bad meal, or a bad course, at Atelier Crenn but – as stated above – it’s not for everyone. You either “get” it or you don’t.

Attitude is something that most diners – including professional reviewers, but certainly us “laypeople” – fail to take into account. Thank you for bringing it up. And of course, along with attitude, there are expectations that one brings to the meal that can make or break the evening. Neither one has anything to do directly with the restaurant itself, but more to do with the individual diner.

Your point re: Manresa is a great example of yet another common phenomenon. Every restaurant “fumbles,” as you put it, every now and again – it’s simply human nature, whether it’s a problem in the kitchen (someone is out sick and they are short-staffed; someone is in a bad mood, and had to redo a dish he/she had accidentally f’d up; the steak spent too long on the grill and gets sent back; etc.), a problem with the waitstaff (not paying attention, or paying too much; spilling a glass of water on the guest; whatever), or something else – and that “fumble” sears a permanent mark into one’s memory. It sinks the restaurant into No Man’s Land: intellectually, you know it was simply a fumble, a glitch, and that it could happen to anyone, anywhere; but emotionally you still hold a grudge and you haven’t been back in years!

I do the same thing, but I try to remember to give the place a second chance – the problem is, what if it happens again? And so, when it comes time to pick a spot for dinner . . . emotionally, we tend to pick someplace else. Only when that “grudge” fades from memory (and how can it with your sister still mentioning it?), does the place stand a chance. ;^)

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Quick update: Crenn was one of the most enjoyable meals I’ve experienced in recent years. Consistency was 100% and there wasn’t a single dish served that wasn’t as delectable to eat as it was beautifully presented. We may have been among the first to experience her fall menu. Flavors were perfectly balanced with subtlety and depth. Our reserve wine paring (single, shared) was also among the most interesting and complimentary that I’ve had in recent memory. Highly recommended if you opt for a pairing. Based on our experience last night and in context to other similar high-end tasting menus we’ve enjoyed, I would say that Crenn is now operating at a three-star level. Thanks again for all the helpful input in deciding!

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We also had lunch at In Situ yesterday which was just OK. It was a pretty poor value in comparison however. We had the wasabi lobster from Tim Raue, octopus from Central, the forest dish (quinoa risotto) from Mirazur, and an awful carrot dish from Amass in Copenhagen. Add two deserts (wood sorrel and sheeps milk & lemon tart from Modena) plus 4 glasses of wine and we were out the door for $300 an hour later. The lobster and octopus were the most rewarding. Service was acceptable but not what it should’ve been for the cost. Dining room was very nice and not well represented at all in photos; it’s actually a beautifully designed space. I wouldn’t go back except for a quick bite in the lounge if I happened to be at MoMA. Value aside, it made for a festive birthday lunch for the missus nonetheless.

Yay! Glad to read your update since I have a reservation next week. Their website is showing a summer menu so it’s good to know they are transitioning to fall.

Can you say a bit more about the wine pairing? I dont always go for it because of the high quantity and often mediocre or obvious pairings, but I love when the food and wine are a perfect match.

Hi Felice,

The reserve pairing is their more ‘exclusive’ offering featuring recent vintages (averaging 10-20 yrs) and Old World imports from some well-known and some lesser seen producers; it’s reflected in the cost at $300 a head. While I always enjoy wine pairings with a good tasting menu, I share a similar perspective as yours with respect to the oft inconsistencies in quality and value. I’ll sometimes offer my own bottles for corkage as a result. That said, neither my wife or myself were particularly in the mood for drinking the other night and I hadn’t been feeling great earlier in the day; we opted to share the reserve pairing and I am SO glad that we did! It really heightened the overall experience. We’ve been to some top tier dining rooms with similarly priced pairings that were enjoyable in their own right, but not nearly as complimentary to the courses themselves. While I didn’t take notes and I don’t recall specifics, I can vaguely tell you that we shared an excellent Gewurztraminer, a really unique Riesling from Austria’s Wagram region, if memory serves, a very nice Burgundy, a Grand Cru from the Pfalz region, I believe, and a flight of Sauternes spanning three decades for our excellent cheese course. There were others that I’m sure my wife could remind me of. Each glass was so in tune with the dishes presented to us, that they almost felt intrinsically paired. My wife commented that it was probably the most enjoyable wine pairing she’d ever experienced for that very reason, and I made a point of relaying that to the sommelier, who was extremely humbled and very much obliged. He was a wealth of knowledge and it seemed a genuine pleasure to share and engage with us. You might consider starting with an aperitif or a glass of champagne and than splitting a Reserve pairing as we did, if you’re concerned about the cost/value ratio; than finishing with a digestif (although you’ll likely be set with the Sauternes). You could always request a second glass, if merited. I’d say that it worked out perfectly for us, as we had just enough pours to put back with every other bite, given the size of portions. As the pairing really was intended for that purpose, I wasn’t necessarily interested in polishing off an entire glass of each wine. It was enough for me to relish with every other bite as a compliment and often enhancement to the flavor profiles of each presentation; it was really a perfectly delightful embellishment for the chef’s tasting menu and it topped off the pleasure factor of each course. I’d highly recommend it!

Have a great time!!

Thank you for sharing the details of your wine experience, the pairing sounds like $300 very well spent. In my mind, the reason I pay a markup for wine at restaurants is the combined experience with food, so it boggles my mind when the wine and food experiences at high end restaurants are so disparate (cough…Manresa). Price/value is not a consideration for the special occasion meals, but I don’t want to feel like I would have picked the same pairings that the sommelier picked. Because then where does the expertise come in?

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Our meal there was amazing, and I had really high expectations based on my first visit two years ago. The food was even better than two years ago when I thought it was the best restaurant in the Bay Area. I cant pick out a favorite, but I think Crenn’s strength is shellfish.

The only thing I would change is to have more savory courses and fewer dessert courses. We didnt have a cheese course.

I also thought the wine pairing was excellent, with half the wines being bulls-eye perfectly paired. The others (2 dessert wines and 2 whites) were also very good but I felt they were selected because they are generally broadly appealing. For the pairings that were perfect, I felt like the wine was an integral part of that course and that the course would be incomplete without it.

Crenn was in the kitchen and dining room, and greeted every table at least once if not twice.

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Glad you enjoyed it and I have to agree re. shellfish, although I’d say her strength extends to all seafood! Did they serve the monkfish and oyster dish? That was one of my favorites of the evening. I haven’t been to Saison yet, but of the equivalent top-tier kitchens in the city, based on my recent visit, I have to say that Crenn is my favorite.

I’m really happy that you felt the same way about the wine pairing, though it’s too bad you weren’t offered the cheese course. I felt the Sauternes paired really nicely with that, and I’m not typically fond of sweet wines. I thought it balanced nicely with the creaminess and mild sharpness of the cheeses. That said, it’s nice to know that their seasonal menus change from week to week though. I cant imagine how they do it as there’s so much detail involved in all of the dishes. I would have assumed that the fall-winter-spring-summer menus remain relatively consistent for several months, adjusting only for market availability of certain ingredients and produce. It’s quite impressive to learn that entire courses are swapped out on a weekly basis, considering how much thought and effort goes into each plate. Just one more excuse to visit more often! :slight_smile:

Our oysters were paired with abalone, which IMO is one of the most difficult types shellfish to prepare because of the delicate flavor and texture challenges. The abalone was incredible, although I am sure the monkfish was great too. The creamed corn with sardine was also perfect. The squab and maitake courses… the experience was both wonderful and tortuous because each course just left me wanting more of it.

We went to Saison two years ago a week or two after Crenn, all as part of a “I will never get to eat out again” farewell tour before the first baby. I think I posted about it on CH but I wished I spent that money on a second meal at Crenn instead. If you do go to Saison, try waiting a while.

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Glad you liked it . . .