I’m not sure if that means I should stop, but in addition to a few named by color, there is a “Sudduth” and an “OTV”. I think many people are looking for “Pink”. I don’t grow those. I do grow open pollinated “Dwarf Tomato Project” varieties, which are “open sourced”, so no one really profits much from the “authenticity” .
The “Scotch Bonnet” business eventually led to me saving my own seeds. Actually, my mother in law’s seeds.
Okay, I’m done. Back to observing. I couldn’t believe there were 30+ new posts when I woke up! It has been a little quiet around here.
I do my best to reliably answer someone’s request. It does not make me an authority. There is no need for authority of any kind. Sometimes I don’t have a great suggestion, so that’s my response.
Why is it wrong to use the word authentic? The reasons given could be applied to love or faith or justice, or even the word you used, authority.
It changes over time.
Not everyone agrees.
Tomatoes came from the New World!
I can use the word “noon” or “oxygen,” but if the meaning of those words changes over time, and not everyone agrees what they mean, then what’s the point?
It’s a really good question. I don’t know. I think cultural appropriation has more to do with “borrowing” from a different culture without attribution and stripping away the context and history. There is some watering/dumbing down element, but I’m not sure if that’s always part of it.
ETA: so was La Choy cultural appropriation? A white guy and a Korean guy start a company canning food with a “Chinese-sounding” name that Chinese immigrants see as dumbed down, but good enough in a pinch.
BarneyGrubble
(Beethoven and Latina singer fan in Ottawa)
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This thread makes me think of the episode of “The Sopranos” where the American paisanos are in Italy, and at a restaurant one of them asks for “gravy” with his pasta. One of his Italian counterparts looks down on him, and says in derision (in Italian, of course, which he didn’t understand), “And we thought that the Germans were classless sh…s; these guys are Italian!”
Good question. The point is that the word itself doesn’t change. It is a general idea. Not an authoritative decree. Something could be authentic if it generally would be considered a faithful representation.
Where I live, there are Thai restaurants that will sweeten their dishes until they lack balance. And they will only offer the most recognizable handful dishes for an American audience. Yes, it’s a judgement call on my part, but when I speak to people intimately familiar with the cuisine a consensus is formed as to which places or dishes to recommend. So when someone asks where to get authentic Thai food in the area, I do indeed have some recommendations that I hope will satisfy the request.
Symbolism is used in literature to quickly and efficiently get across an idea that would otherwise take pages and pages of clumsy text. So I consider the request to be a kind of symbol.
It usually means all of the below:
Don’t overly rely on sweetener
Use the exotic ingredients you’d probably get over there.
Don’t substitute boneless skinless white meat chicken in all your dishes.
Offer high spice levels when appropriate, or as the customer would like.
Offer foods not covered in gravy.
Offer dishes that aren’t copies of every other menu.
Use oil as you would if you were not cooking for an American clientele.
And more…
But the way you seem to use “authentic” is as a mark of quality. “X is good because it’s authentic. And I know what is authentic, so I know what is good.” I can’t speak for everyone on this thread who has disagreed with you (which is, I think, everyone on this thread), but that’s the attitude that gets a big eye-roll from me.
I apologize if I have not made myself clear on a number of fronts.
I know that the word mein in chicken chow mein means noodles. The restaurants, not me, are using the nomenclature. I am just telling you factually what was written on the menu, and what my father ordered all the time, without exception.
I have not said anything about what constitutes good. Just like in movies, books, or music, I have a list of favorites, not best.
I do have a history of expanding my horizons on many fronts, including food. So I do encourage people to get out of their comfort zone and explore, if they have the choice. If they don’t explore, then there will come a point when it’s not really a choice anymore. Their tastes will be limited to what they liked from a long time ago.
Mod note here: This topic has run its course and the discussion is getting unnecessarily contentious. Let’s agree to disagree. I will leave the topic open but if the temperature keeps rising it will be locked.
I am perfectly ok with however the soup is made. It is a question of expectations. If a chef makes a matzoh ball soup and uses pork fat, then I would not consider it authentic Jewish cuisine. Whether it tastes better or not or whether I would order it or not is another question.
Oh yes, I do appreciate that it’s not a unique quality on HO. I was using my little homily as an illustration.
I might consider it good or even better if a restaurant offers the stuff that does take one out of the comfort zone, an opportunity to stretch those tastebuds. Even though I do not say automatically the food is good or better. It’s an opportunity.
I don’t feel a need to post about myriad foods that are simply good but unremarkable.
Like @sck said, let’s disagree without ad hominem posts.
My dislike of the word authentic in many contexts is due to its use as a word to denote what one group values over something else.
Its fine to use authentic for things that can actually be measured and verified. As I posted before, an authentic bottle of Petrus or a Picasso or even a Channel bag as those are things that someone may produce a fake and try to pass off as authentic. There is no fake food. There’s food you like and food you don’t.
Authentic food items such as DOP or AOC certified cheese is about protecting market share and pricing power. There is no reason that a cheese made a certain way and produced in Emilia Romagna would be superior to a cheese made identically in Wisconsin. Authenticity is embraced to enhance sales.
If you go back to the original story in the FT, many defenders of authentic food use the notion of true or real food to exclude. Not to broaden and be more inclusive. Real “xxxx” food for real people of “xxxx.” Our food is better than the food of foreign interlopers.
Steve’s example of Thai is intriguing to me. The most well known Thai dish in the US is likely pad thai. This dish was practically created in a test kitchen. It didn’t organically originate from some Thai grandmothers toiling away over a fire while their families worked the fields. Then it was pushed by the government because rice was in short supply. A dish created in the interest of Thai nationalism post the overthrow of the monarchy. Then shipped out to the world with government support.
The most inclusive example of food I love is how every immigrant group after settling in America adopts the Thanksgiving turkey but dresses it up and supplements it with food from where they came. Authentic? Hell no, but getting invited to Thanksgiving meals like this have always been fabulous occasions for eating wonderful food.
Overall, I think your post is fine. However, I think I’d still worry about any use of the word authentic, other than for marketing purposes. Is the bottle genuinely Petrus? Well, yes it can (hopefully) be ascertained that it isn’t a fake made by some knock off winery. Same with a Picasso. But these (Petrus, Picasso…) are brands, not the general proposition that Steve, in my opinion, keeps putting forth which, as I read it, is that you can steer someone to an authentic Thai restaurant. I fully agree with him when he points out what is clearly not “authentic”, but that’s not the same. Yeah, La Choy aint authentic (for many reasons) but that doesn’t really help in defining what is. So, the bottle of Petrus might be authenticated as a Petrus, but is it more of an authentic Merlot than any other variety (as long as they’re using Merlot grapes)? Or, is it even more of an authentic French wine than the swill I sometimes drink? Is the Picasso an authentic French painting any more than the couch art I’ve seen in France? Maybe (maybe?!) I’m a little too pedantic on this, but hey, its an authentic comment.
This is an interesting take, and maybe even a common one, but I don’t have a problem with someone who is Mexican (as an example) wanting a taste of home. They value it because it is rare, depending on where they live.
Like I’ve said before, the inauthentic is all around us. I don’t see the point of talking about it. Everyone has already found those places and pretty much knows what they taste like, franchises and all. A place that takes more care to maintain a fidelity to a family recipe, yes that is rarer and hence more valuable.
As for me - I am not Mexican and my travels there are almost zero. But if I ask someone I respect about Mexican food where to get an authentic taste then yes I am all ears.
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