5 Ingredients - Jamie Oliver

No question that those two brands have totally different characteristics. I will always go with Diamond.

My problem with the season to taste is when we are talking about raw pork and/or chicken. I can’t taste it raw. I just want to some guidance… if the forward says that recipes were tested with table, sea, Morton, Diamond… then I can adjust. Season to taste does make sense in a salad dressing. It doesn’t make sense in a dish with raw proteins.

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It depends. Some are vanity projects with the chef literally putting the name on the cover of a ghost written book. But there are quite a lot that are the work of the said chef - they may well work with a writer and production team but they have a lot of input. I gave some examples in my previous post.

Nope. Never mentioned it.

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Yup. Exact opposite here. I use Diamond. When I have to use Morton, everything is oversalted.

I’m curious if anyone has ever read a good ghostwritten cookbook. I picked up a chef-written Greek cookbook at the library (can’t recall the author at the moment) and I wished it was ghostwritten or at least he had major assistance. Too many ideas thrown all over the place.

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I think it may be difficult to be certain when a ghostwriter has been used, as opposed to the big names who may, or may not, have used a ghost but have certainly been supported by, say, recipe development people or publishers’ editors. Someone may well be able to cook but can they write?

As you mentioned Greek, I pulled the only Greek cookbook I have off the shelves (actually “modern Greek Cypriot”). It’s the author’s first book. I know who she is but I’m not really familiar with her career. Even here, there’s a long list of credits - various editors, several more folk who come in for fullsome praise without really being specific about their role. Certainly there’s no credit for anyone obviously a ghost - but there wouldnt be, would there?

IMO, the key to turning out a really good book, as opposed to one that is decent enough, is the strength of the editing. In my own field of military history, I’ve greatly benefitted from the input of my editor. On the other hand, I’ve seen awful books, usually self-published. A couple of years back, I was sent a first chapter of a book someone was trying to write. It was terrible - poor grammar and spelling and an account that didnt really hang together. The guy had asked for my honest comments and I replied that it would need some heavy revision and editing. And that was, seemingly, the end of that. Whether he kept on writing, I don’t know, but the book has never got to publication.

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At the risk of being called names and threatened with grievous battery (not to mention divorce), what is written above is just incorrect with regard to the average celebrity cookbook these days.

  1. Cookbooks are not great literature. They do not get written by Hemingway or Steinbeck. They may be put together by people with a high school education, but even that isn’t a given. Chefs who can write a coherent English sentence, like Anthony Bourdain, are exceedingly rare. English composition is not a required course at Hyde Park.

  2. For most celebrity chefs the books are written by staff, not the chef. The celebrity chef may be somewhat involved in the selection of recipes or the theme, and also may read and approve the proofs, but that’s about it.

  3. I know this because I used to work the other side of the curtain, and because my cousin used to ghost write cookbooks for a living. So this is not something I am asserting because I believe it to be so, or because I publish other stuff. It’s what is actually going on.

  4. An easy way to determine who wrote the book is to check the copyright notice. If it says Boy Meats Grill or Martha Stewart Living or Al a Carte Productions LLC it was probably at least in part ghost written, and “work for hire” agreements were involved.

  5. The full story on who is writing what will never come out, because most of the ghost writers sign iron clad confidentiality agreement with serious financial penalties for disclosure. Plus, if word gets around, they will never work again.

  6. The books are sold and marketed to a largely unsuspecting audience, who may or may not cook, based upon the strength of the celebrity’s brand. For example, there are a lot of famous people who are not chefs who have cookbooks.

Some “authors” like Rachel Ray, Martha Stewart, Paula Deen and… Jamie Oliver… are notorious for their use of staff writers and assistants. Even Jacques and Julia used them. This trend has accelerated greatly over the last 20 years or so.

This is not to say that some books are not written by the chefs. I’ve checked my library for copyright notice and both Diane Kochilas and Walter Staib, for example, write their own works.

But they are the exception to the rule these days.

As much as it pains me to quote this source, and if certain persons won’t believe me, perhaps they will believe the New York Times:

Finally, it continues to be a mystery to me why any one would buy these things, but then I guess there is an audience for everything.

If you would like to read well written and authoritative Greek cook books I can highly recommend Diane Kochilas.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0312087837/ref=dbs_a_w_dp_0312087837

The book cited above is a classic, but she has written a number of others.

As noted above, she also writes her own books. No ghost writer is involved.

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OK I did a quick check on the Chefs books I named checked and they text is all copyrighted to them (including Ramsay). I also have a couple of the early Jamie Oliver books…and you guessed it the text is under his copyright…!

These are books I tend to like and use -so maybe I have a good nose for a trial chefs book.

I also checked a couple of the “christmas present” books I have received - which are all published by one of the big global players - and their copyright is with the publisher not the named chef on the cover…and indeed their recipes reflect that and the books have never been really used.

I know most famous French chef books are written by ghosts. In the copyright notice, only publisher copyright, no text copyrights is ever mentioned. I personally know a cookbook ghost writer who wrote for Ducasse and other famous chefs. That writer is a serious food writer and has published several quality books under his own name. Working with big chefs wasn’t easy, they could be quite hostile and did not cooperate to give the authentic restaurant recipe. They tried to talk about fancy regional ingredients that nobody would have hands on them. Recently when watching Chef Table, I was surprised that some 2 stars chefs featured in those Netflix series, they had bought those overpriced French chef books and cooked from them. These book range from 160€ to 400€, up to a recent record: an Alléno book that costs 1500€.

Funny, I just discovered that one of the Robuchon book I bought (when it was heavily discounted) was translated into French from Japanese!

I don’t know the culture of other part of the world, at least the French chefs do not pretend they are writers, many start working at the age at 14 or 15 or are school dropouts.

Personally, I don’t care if books are ghost written or not. I just care if the recipes are tested and if they are good. Point. I owned the original French version Stéphane Raymond’s “Pork and Sons” before Phaidon translated it into English. The recipes are interesting, but there was basically no proofreading, tons of errors in orthography, sentences not finishing or error in ingredients. At times, the young kids in publishing house forgot that they are not making an internet website, that you can keep correcting the errors after pushing the publish button. (N.B. Stéphane Raymond is not a celebrity chef.)

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As is the copyright on the book this thread relates to.

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I found this in a David Thompson’s book, he has the copyright on the text and there is this line:
“The moral right of the author has been asserted.”

What does it mean?

naf

The phrase often appears in books published in the UK. I believe it to be related to an added protection for the author so that, even when a book might be out of copyright, the text cannot be significantly altered - the author having asserted their right to be identified as the author. Google will find you a more precise definition.

In the UK “moral rights” are established in copyright law. My own publisher uses, for example, "The right of John Hartley to be identified as the author of this work has been asserted by him in accordance with the Copyright, Design and Patents Act 1988.

It’ s not something I have ever fussed over.

Thank you for the explanation.

9 posts were split to a new topic: Chef training- apprenticeship vs self-taught vs vocational school

Most recipes I am interested either from specific restaurants or specific cuisines are mostly not available online

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I accidently found his “5 Ingredients” show on one of our commercial channels last night. Although I will say UK shows are now heading our way very soon after broadcast - the latest Happy Valley was almost broadcast simultaneously.

And much to my surprise I thought his recipes were pretty good. He cooked a steak with mushrooms and white beans; a seared tuna with miso and sesame seeds; and an almond pastry puff.

Nothing was too complex. His techniques were good, with what I thought was good advice for the novice cook, and he used decent ingredients i.e. beans from a jar not a can.

I didn’t learn anything really new but there were some decent ideas that will probably pop up in my week night cooking.

I (we) are probably not the target audience but I suspect the target audience can get a lot out of the series.

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Good to know you’re not missing out on excellent northern drama, Phil.

Drama…? I had assumed it was a documentary that chronicled the sad decline of the once cultured side of the Pennines. I blame the Mancs…! :wink:

Me too. But then I’m a Cestrian. :grin:

Rant entitled! To me, worse than season to perfection is “cook until done”. And continuing to share your rant, what is such a big deal of 'x number of ingredients" ? Ingredients are not the qualifying stumble block in cooking. PROCESS is. Don’t tell me to combine several cups of PEELED, CHOPPED, BLANCHED veggies. You have just co-opted 3/4 hour of my life! There is nothing wrong with that instruction but don’t include it in your “15 minute meals”. Just one example, but I’m sure you get my drift. Now if you are a Whole Foods customer who buys all your veg peeled, chopped, spiralized, et al, then qualify your recipes by calling them “15 minute meals requiring only 5 pre-prepped ingredients”. But doubt Harters would keep that book either. :grinning:

I missed this thread first time around but chiming in now. I guess as with any mass media (in this case, cookbook for the masses) the audience is not necessarily people who are zeroed in on food. But honestly, no matter the vague instructions, I love the fact that these ghost writers/authors are making an attempt to free up peoples slave-ish adherence to recipes. And as for the five ingredient gimmick, that is somewhat appealing to me especially with a preschooler and hungry mouths to feed after school / work. I know I feel less intimidated to have a smaller ingredient list, and I’m someone who likes to roll her sleeves up in the kitchen. Someone like my mom, who is older would definitely be intimidated by long ingredient lists and complicated protocols. So I feel like these books serve a purpose for certain people. I’m glad that they exist.

Caveat is I’ve never laid eyes on the JO book in question but I always enjoyed his early Naked Chef persona. Food after all should be fun!